Received: from localhost ([::1]:34976 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUwc6-0005L9-Sx; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 07:30:26 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f43.google.com ([74.125.82.43]:40216) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUwbb-0005Iy-13 for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 07:29:55 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f43.google.com with SMTP id f206so48483392wmf.5 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 07:29:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=mEMEtT9tQxGteu41HgT5ZbAwjH18DNFMtcQgUSjIFYM=; b=hL0MaH0y3tcOTt7p+eADvttAFXFt7LbVJEkTZm8Mcvc9/v0fIUggXGlL8guL73zGEc 7senas9KltoQG+z974YpSuHttwUiBLv9f9StddMD1vc6tqs2kXBXYyDot4z33BYavqoh CDkXCpwehVNX0Oh/brwX1IVblr8yu7VKjgDWEU8x+xIFB358Yz8ao5TIGhbibZEYhab9 OHUyPehf97kahXmd1eTJmCMmui5K2/fhFKxCSDmiWHyW9ozXSuR4XNY0lJd3j7YOSdA7 oNa7XynG4ONpGXNM94vDx0qGEJHr1o5K7vjmUDBmnJAAzzDnxJLeoaYioUOiQky7lR9f th4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=mEMEtT9tQxGteu41HgT5ZbAwjH18DNFMtcQgUSjIFYM=; b=F/33l85a6QwdIkLJuKGWdb3G1ZO8YsQZj5XtHenoC9T9EN3Z/uoDVD1yDhKF51NSdu qIDeNZAyaUbL8e1AYl3lvwnmepbrrj9Gne+SH8deeBRDocDs+18r4n7MnR3PuXx+ZM1J QCLmM6yfa9i8owXP5bBWXem4GnsiTA1xbPdvkj7ZUmEsdpnn0/umhKwbZCdOvFChdkhu ABh4VPTg61WzFPU2XogvENItcoVVRd9snE6R+SH2Cc7oCSDOa9s3yvYDGHKYR9PdIWPv AgH826Z7bWRUroXWZsQvPwbS0LM8TG0x6R71tKV+jjQzXPPlxttankYEo+qfUR9s8nNA rtvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mL31m3k5PIsQGsV23BBgXeqkbHIWUOcaDDIOOyHxmylMAVvx95v i7YXupwCoaVXghqsjiorKlrTPRS/bTQ34eyiihA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBottQJCfj38XuyifDxt6qWU63qXTr2j7ZmIG0zdjpiRFDwoq05H6eZBPOwXskEQY+IqJbylCuNTx3nA44v5Uods= X-Received: by 10.28.109.139 with SMTP id b11mr27373740wmi.85.1514561387957; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 07:29:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.135.147 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 07:29:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.135.147 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 07:29:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6c826210-9f71-1813-2957-7e5593ad18ed@lojban.org> References: <7074953.2veMK8YGUJ@caracal> <6c826210-9f71-1813-2957-7e5593ad18ed@lojban.org> From: And Rosta Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 15:29:46 +0000 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: BPFK X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5659486326935292620==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============5659486326935292620== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1146793885115c05617c4ddf" --001a1146793885115c05617c4ddf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On 26 Dec 2017 19:36, "Bob LeChevalier" wrote: > The bylaws were formulated to broadly cover a variety of forms of research into logical languages, and there has always been the possibility of conducting or supporting such research. But to put it simply, no one has been interested in such research EXCEPT in the form of promoting and studying the use of Lojban. That statement is patently false and wilfully amnesiac. I was for many years the most vocal proponent of the LLG's mission to explore logical language, as opposed to the mission to promote Lojban. As a member of LLG and the Lojban community I eventually changed my position, but this was because it became increasingly evident to me that the two goals (of exploring and promoting logical language, versus promoting Lojban) are in fact antithetical; within LLG and the Lojban community, a victory for the one goal can be achieved only through the defeat of the other; but success in the goal of promoting Lojban can be achieved only within LLG and the Lojban community, whereas success in the goal of promoting logical language can be achieved outside it; many promoters of Lojban (as opposed to logical language) have invested much of their life's work in the enterprise, and pursuing the failure of another's life's work should be avoided where possible; therefore LLG and the Lojban community should be left to promote (conservative) Lojban unopposed (and therefore must not be required to promote logical language). > Indeed, there is a strong antipathy to other "logical languages", which I admit to sharing; I'm simply not interested, and never have been - languages are too hard for me to learn, and IMHO too difficult to properly "invent" with the complete full documentation needed for new people to learn and use them. So I hope selpa'i will forgive me if I don't look at his own efforts at a new "logical language". This is all true, except that the Lojban that Lojbab endorses is not a logical language, for all that it might falsely advertise itself as such. The antipathy Lojbab describes exists because Lojban seeks to accrue users and promotes itself by falsely claiming to be a logical language. Any logical language is therefore a rival to Lojban. And Lojban's false claim to be a logical language, coupled with its comparative fame, is an obstacle to -- a distraction from -- the promotion of logical language. So LLG can adopt such research, if some LLG members want to do so, but until then LLG considers supporting Lojban to be the best way to promote the purposes described in the Bylaws. Again, patent bullshit. While I would be only too delighted for the LLG to promote the purposes described in the Bylaws, that would entail deprecating Lojban in its baselined and current forms. Given that LLG recruits from the Lojban community rather than from the logical language community, it is obviously and not unreasonably the case that the large majority of LLG members prioritize the promotion of Lojban over the promotion of the purposes described in the Bylaws. --And. --001a1146793885115c05617c4ddf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 26 Dec 2017 19:36, "Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
> The bylaws were formulated to bro= adly cover a variety of forms of research into logical languages, and there= has always been the possibility of conducting or supporting such research.= But to put it simply, no one has been interested in such research EXCEPT i= n the form of promoting and studying the use of Lojban.

That statement is patently false and wilfully amnesiac.

I was for many years the most vocal proponent of the LLG's mission to= explore logical language, as opposed to the mission to promote Lojban. As = a member of LLG and the Lojban community I eventually changed my position, = but this was because it became increasingly evident to me that the two goal= s (of exploring and promoting logical language, versus promoting Lojban) ar= e in fact antithetical; within LLG and the Lojban community, a victory for = the one goal can be achieved only through the defeat of the other; but succ= ess in the goal of promoting Lojban can be achieved only within LLG and the= Lojban community, whereas success in the goal of promoting logical languag= e can be achieved outside it; many promoters of Lojban (as opposed to logic= al language) have invested much of their life's work in the enterprise,= and pursuing the failure of another's life's work should be avoide= d where possible; therefore LLG and the Lojban community should be left to = promote (conservative) Lojban unopposed (and therefore must not be required= to promote logical language).

>=C2=A0 Indeed, there= is a strong antipathy to other "logical languages", which I admi= t to sharing; I'm simply not interested, and never have been - language= s are too hard for me to learn, and IMHO too difficult to properly "in= vent" with the complete full documentation needed for new people to le= arn and use them.=C2=A0 So I hope selpa'i will forgive me if I don'= t look at his own efforts at a new "logical language".

This is all true, except that the Lojban that Lojbab endorses is = not a logical language, for all that it might falsely advertise itself as s= uch.=C2=A0

The antipathy Lojbab describes exists becaus= e Lojban seeks to accrue users and promotes itself by falsely claiming to b= e a logical language. Any logical language is therefore a rival to Lojban. = And Lojban's false claim to be a logical language, coupled with its com= parative fame, is an obstacle to -- a distraction from -- the promotion of = logical language.




So LLG can adopt such research, if some LLG members want to do so, but unti= l then LLG considers supporting Lojban to be the best way to promote the pu= rposes described in the Bylaws.

Again, patent bullshit.=C2=A0


While I w= ould be only too delighted for the LLG to promote the purposes described in= the Bylaws, that would entail deprecating Lojban in its baselined and curr= ent forms. Given that LLG recruits from the Lojban community rather than fr= om the logical language community, it is obviously and not unreasonably the= case that the large majority of LLG members prioritize the promotion of Lo= jban over the promotion of the purposes described in the Bylaws.=C2=A0

--And.
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