Received: from localhost ([::1]:37448 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUxIw-0007qE-Cq; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:14:42 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f42.google.com ([74.125.82.42]:37915) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUxIP-0007o3-Lv for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:14:10 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f42.google.com with SMTP id 64so48681424wme.3 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:14:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=5icS37HTi1TL0EoThtIwyl37czjMoKgw2/WFjGXSSps=; b=g5tK8buEk7YZfPB5/hrsj+0lCRNAKzfobBtNRClY1Bjez+/OG/EWAhEV3ZeOmnsWPj ImmevKcK/HNwBXbSWEquPr4pqWGKKGwAciCdYF+4I7BGeQKuNHjMMyakNLWrH6SAwe6m DJF7mqeTwQjHVzexSNXAYB9eZ3Th7bu2hRANh7HEsZHH8daQk1i/iokr3J4FMpGHC6GC K+Ie7zuSKG8YLsMKBKREew6BSnPC7wTwC+8us4yBzHX04lFhi9+CGwkanM8qXILx2dLp Lqg5QICSS75z7k8kLOUBRlMye0QL+ntpkY3zqI6B5KcuUd7y02vPdiA0OkVLHjNV71IR 0CSw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=5icS37HTi1TL0EoThtIwyl37czjMoKgw2/WFjGXSSps=; b=aXLXD3mqMpxRoFmWei4Bl7rX5NqICZm0NWDBXxFTHt3fmrYmeyIn7b17clTCzMh/FJ 36b5cwOwYZ37w4PulDA2WvkXmREEpIkPOIAcA9/c5JHLltl94FSvYfQAZ0N38SH+MfOD PtEl3NBJhoUEyRtO8Dbc01uHmu5ZwxiIvbVOqskLzIurGDCGziC8JsuUfaKJJfxLlknm 7wPGxPculQPpf8/lUOvpzuSwBIubJnDb+GDMq/mjq5uFnX+j1O7z/hDZnds8323lbV12 iPPOCGPFhQaK+9ySgKnaNnoQk9RpQQN5gq1q5nG8KJUFsO/3lCdDAXXtfbxJ1C92rT8r L+pg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mILHonvRLh9rdrmH8ExYFDIM1lMaRj3U3HiezsqC1ZOlLKBCqyw /9RvUnrFGuXHJseL31U2QfOFH0zZoszApjJPjQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBotNY4ZazNtu4QWqNUe2Eobii8NQ0WT1M7g9hgGwioE7KItu51n+SImBJb5x2t9CWlBvoxdhyXjuVn7rnPCDsHk= X-Received: by 10.80.177.153 with SMTP id m25mr46810324edd.181.1514564042672; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:14:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.173.219 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:13:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7074953.2veMK8YGUJ@caracal> <6c826210-9f71-1813-2957-7e5593ad18ed@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 19:13:22 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: BPFK X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5558257655368599711==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============5558257655368599711== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c228ec0ce4905617ceb8c" --f403045c228ec0ce4905617ceb8c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" And, what IS a logical language? Show us one. 2017-12-29 18:29 GMT+03:00 And Rosta : > > > On 26 Dec 2017 19:36, "Bob LeChevalier" wrote: > > The bylaws were formulated to broadly cover a variety of forms of > research into logical languages, and there has always been the possibility > of conducting or supporting such research. But to put it simply, no one has > been interested in such research EXCEPT in the form of promoting and > studying the use of Lojban. > > That statement is patently false and wilfully amnesiac. > > I was for many years the most vocal proponent of the LLG's mission to > explore logical language, as opposed to the mission to promote Lojban. As a > member of LLG and the Lojban community I eventually changed my position, > but this was because it became increasingly evident to me that the two > goals (of exploring and promoting logical language, versus promoting > Lojban) are in fact antithetical; within LLG and the Lojban community, a > victory for the one goal can be achieved only through the defeat of the > other; but success in the goal of promoting Lojban can be achieved only > within LLG and the Lojban community, whereas success in the goal of > promoting logical language can be achieved outside it; many promoters of > Lojban (as opposed to logical language) have invested much of their life's > work in the enterprise, and pursuing the failure of another's life's work > should be avoided where possible; therefore LLG and the Lojban community > should be left to promote (conservative) Lojban unopposed (and therefore > must not be required to promote logical language). > > > Indeed, there is a strong antipathy to other "logical languages", which > I admit to sharing; I'm simply not interested, and never have been - > languages are too hard for me to learn, and IMHO too difficult to properly > "invent" with the complete full documentation needed for new people to > learn and use them. So I hope selpa'i will forgive me if I don't look at > his own efforts at a new "logical language". > > This is all true, except that the Lojban that Lojbab endorses is not a > logical language, for all that it might falsely advertise itself as such. > > The antipathy Lojbab describes exists because Lojban seeks to accrue users > and promotes itself by falsely claiming to be a logical language. Any > logical language is therefore a rival to Lojban. And Lojban's false claim > to be a logical language, coupled with its comparative fame, is an obstacle > to -- a distraction from -- the promotion of logical language. > > > > > So LLG can adopt such research, if some LLG members want to do so, but > until then LLG considers supporting Lojban to be the best way to promote > the purposes described in the Bylaws. > > > Again, patent bullshit. > > > While I would be only too delighted for the LLG to promote the purposes > described in the Bylaws, that would entail deprecating Lojban in its > baselined and current forms. Given that LLG recruits from the Lojban > community rather than from the logical language community, it is obviously > and not unreasonably the case that the large majority of LLG members > prioritize the promotion of Lojban over the promotion of the purposes > described in the Bylaws. > > --And. > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --f403045c228ec0ce4905617ceb8c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
And, what IS a logical language? Show us one.

2017-12-29 18:29 GMT+03:= 00 And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>:


On 26 Dec 2017 19:36, &quo= t;Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
> The bylaws were formulated to broadly cover a variety of fo= rms of research into logical languages, and there has always been the possi= bility of conducting or supporting such research. But to put it simply, no = one has been interested in such research EXCEPT in the form of promoting an= d studying the use of Lojban.
=
That statement is = patently false and wilfully amnesiac.

I was for many = years the most vocal proponent of the LLG's mission to explore logical = language, as opposed to the mission to promote Lojban. As a member of LLG a= nd the Lojban community I eventually changed my position, but this was beca= use it became increasingly evident to me that the two goals (of exploring a= nd promoting logical language, versus promoting Lojban) are in fact antithe= tical; within LLG and the Lojban community, a victory for the one goal can = be achieved only through the defeat of the other; but success in the goal o= f promoting Lojban can be achieved only within LLG and the Lojban community= , whereas success in the goal of promoting logical language can be achieved= outside it; many promoters of Lojban (as opposed to logical language) have= invested much of their life's work in the enterprise, and pursuing the= failure of another's life's work should be avoided where possible;= therefore LLG and the Lojban community should be left to promote (conserva= tive) Lojban unopposed (and therefore must not be required to promote logic= al language).

>=C2=A0 Indeed, there= is a strong antipathy to other "logical languages", which I admi= t to sharing; I'm simply not interested, and never have been - language= s are too hard for me to learn, and IMHO too difficult to properly "in= vent" with the complete full documentation needed for new people to le= arn and use them.=C2=A0 So I hope selpa'i will forgive me if I don'= t look at his own efforts at a new "logical language".

This is all true, except that the Lojban that Lojbab endor= ses is not a logical language, for all that it might falsely advertise itse= lf as such.=C2=A0

The antipathy Lojbab describes exists= because Lojban seeks to accrue users and promotes itself by falsely claimi= ng to be a logical language. Any logical language is therefore a rival to L= ojban. And Lojban's false claim to be a logical language, coupled with = its comparative fame, is an obstacle to -- a distraction from -- the promot= ion of logical language.




So LLG can adopt such research, if some LLG members want to do so, but unti= l then LLG considers supporting Lojban to be the best way to promote the pu= rposes described in the Bylaws.

Again, patent bullshit.=C2=A0


Whi= le I would be only too delighted for the LLG to promote the purposes descri= bed in the Bylaws, that would entail deprecating Lojban in its baselined an= d current forms. Given that LLG recruits from the Lojban community rather t= han from the logical language community, it is obviously and not unreasonab= ly the case that the large majority of LLG members prioritize the promotion= of Lojban over the promotion of the purposes described in the Bylaws.=C2= =A0
<= br>
--And.
_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


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