Received: from localhost ([::1]:37788 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUxNX-0008A0-IR; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:19:27 -0800 Received: from mail-yb0-f180.google.com ([209.85.213.180]:41424) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUxN1-00087v-L6 for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:18:56 -0800 Received: by mail-yb0-f180.google.com with SMTP id o84so17138301yba.8 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:18:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=w9lo/mW+WEXrf/9gUP5rHIXKaj0zFawfpo1oC3uyYJQ=; b=GrQaiZ0VLA5qpe29DoZvM9hbchR9VnYe7eVUNDSctkeQAcTbRh7wDWn0pY/YAcvEvx yNVP8HpfkqQq70XOVPnUIbIR8HwXAZKL9y9Bc8UzFWu8xOlb7RF8E2Z3un8HbUUyp8Xm bKkunfw7zdPOppiQU6xdneo7tKZ9I+LxXEyvBXxFLeCjtK5Sv/z7+O6ncY0u1aLEv766 FrNXBMTq2YcJf+23srbGL2MytC49QIfXk2cz6pr0ID43UuPJu3PPmJq3FcjC9szRfVLB YwwmtsG7DtcIo312wd1y6nUjuEhdtQYCYjTrSfwoMsJixYZeelDW+kV5qbMKuYguGcGS YJEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=w9lo/mW+WEXrf/9gUP5rHIXKaj0zFawfpo1oC3uyYJQ=; b=g8PX/knLHmNt+B67ldlTV4TnV6zQISFmXkEl5hHASNLJyORto3lTwFZdDCGynvy54S wK9Ph+R8SuOUZwRYP8J8mJY3tpDA/Ymgi27qMTv+/w7kdKQWdy6GpZiuBq0G7OPN88uH 7HYlUNUxg2/sRCRIx9+YX0oy0xMNKbhDpf7/LZ+YFfZsQC7+JhsJzyaanS3czJ0Xp6oT 2Mnfwl4fa0Zeik+HlYmRb74iFayyGdmZyoQ2k+gWoh9sA6y6D+Sf78U6iPYbJ58ZVWSg a07LmWMu2ZNyo/r6c+LJoUYHC4Sp0XAGzBw0tMIrfdQ9e0wmGhox19qoVzAVzazyEANh i85A== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mL3Zr+nMsfHuJbVr4GrLRA1BaZ6NNFcm3fyj+88r/4jEzKyouo/ ++nVyzx1DmI3Uj62qtJLgJ2MguJsupLmMdf4fpA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBou8EltwARpFdrycLryWzPqD4qibpKI12lY2UHuxzBJOSrmXUzClE17eRioisA4dfZ+Zgq9Halg7d+dAL7HFYF4= X-Received: by 10.37.187.197 with SMTP id c5mr25479629ybk.36.1514564328891; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:18:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.135.9 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:18:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.37.135.9 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:18:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7074953.2veMK8YGUJ@caracal> <6c826210-9f71-1813-2957-7e5593ad18ed@lojban.org> From: Curtis Franks Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:18:48 -0500 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: BPFK X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6048225716883534023==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============6048225716883534023== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403043d9f14d027ec05617cfccf" --f403043d9f14d027ec05617cfccf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I think that this has been covered in some detail elsewhere, but it is germane to this discussion and I opine that this discussion is still relevant to the overall purpose and general conceptual orientation of this meeting, so explication should be provided. I would also like to have, listed here, all of the generic defining qualities of a logical language (not just examples of such) and explanation of how Lojban fails to satisfy that or those which it does. On Dec 29, 2017 11:14, "Gleki Arxokuna" wrote: > And, what IS a logical language? Show us one. > > 2017-12-29 18:29 GMT+03:00 And Rosta : > >> >> >> On 26 Dec 2017 19:36, "Bob LeChevalier" wrote: >> > The bylaws were formulated to broadly cover a variety of forms of >> research into logical languages, and there has always been the possibility >> of conducting or supporting such research. But to put it simply, no one has >> been interested in such research EXCEPT in the form of promoting and >> studying the use of Lojban. >> >> That statement is patently false and wilfully amnesiac. >> >> I was for many years the most vocal proponent of the LLG's mission to >> explore logical language, as opposed to the mission to promote Lojban. As a >> member of LLG and the Lojban community I eventually changed my position, >> but this was because it became increasingly evident to me that the two >> goals (of exploring and promoting logical language, versus promoting >> Lojban) are in fact antithetical; within LLG and the Lojban community, a >> victory for the one goal can be achieved only through the defeat of the >> other; but success in the goal of promoting Lojban can be achieved only >> within LLG and the Lojban community, whereas success in the goal of >> promoting logical language can be achieved outside it; many promoters of >> Lojban (as opposed to logical language) have invested much of their life's >> work in the enterprise, and pursuing the failure of another's life's work >> should be avoided where possible; therefore LLG and the Lojban community >> should be left to promote (conservative) Lojban unopposed (and therefore >> must not be required to promote logical language). >> >> > Indeed, there is a strong antipathy to other "logical languages", >> which I admit to sharing; I'm simply not interested, and never have been - >> languages are too hard for me to learn, and IMHO too difficult to properly >> "invent" with the complete full documentation needed for new people to >> learn and use them. So I hope selpa'i will forgive me if I don't look at >> his own efforts at a new "logical language". >> >> This is all true, except that the Lojban that Lojbab endorses is not a >> logical language, for all that it might falsely advertise itself as such. >> >> The antipathy Lojbab describes exists because Lojban seeks to accrue >> users and promotes itself by falsely claiming to be a logical language. Any >> logical language is therefore a rival to Lojban. And Lojban's false claim >> to be a logical language, coupled with its comparative fame, is an obstacle >> to -- a distraction from -- the promotion of logical language. >> >> >> >> >> So LLG can adopt such research, if some LLG members want to do so, but >> until then LLG considers supporting Lojban to be the best way to promote >> the purposes described in the Bylaws. >> >> >> Again, patent bullshit. >> >> >> While I would be only too delighted for the LLG to promote the purposes >> described in the Bylaws, that would entail deprecating Lojban in its >> baselined and current forms. Given that LLG recruits from the Lojban >> community rather than from the logical language community, it is obviously >> and not unreasonably the case that the large majority of LLG members >> prioritize the promotion of Lojban over the promotion of the purposes >> described in the Bylaws. >> >> --And. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --f403043d9f14d027ec05617cfccf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think that this has been covered in some detail elsewhe= re, but it is germane to this discussion and I opine that this discussion i= s still relevant to the overall purpose and general conceptual orientation = of this meeting, so explication should be provided.

I would also like to have, listed here, all of the ge= neric defining qualities of a logical language (not just examples of such) = and explanation of how Lojban fails to satisfy that or those which it does.=

On De= c 29, 2017 11:14, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
And, what IS a l= ogical language? Show us one.

2017-12-29 18:29 GMT+03:00 And Rosta &l= t;and.rosta@gmail.= com>:

On 26 Dec 2017 19:36, "Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
=
> The bylaws were formulated to = broadly cover a variety of forms of research into logical languages, and th= ere has always been the possibility of conducting or supporting such resear= ch. But to put it simply, no one has been interested in such research EXCEP= T in the form of promoting and studying the use of Lojban.

That statement is patently false and wilfully amnesiac.

I was for many years the most vocal proponent of the LLG's= mission to explore logical language, as opposed to the mission to promote = Lojban. As a member of LLG and the Lojban community I eventually changed my= position, but this was because it became increasingly evident to me that t= he two goals (of exploring and promoting logical language, versus promoting= Lojban) are in fact antithetical; within LLG and the Lojban community, a v= ictory for the one goal can be achieved only through the defeat of the othe= r; but success in the goal of promoting Lojban can be achieved only within = LLG and the Lojban community, whereas success in the goal of promoting logi= cal language can be achieved outside it; many promoters of Lojban (as oppos= ed to logical language) have invested much of their life's work in the = enterprise, and pursuing the failure of another's life's work shoul= d be avoided where possible; therefore LLG and the Lojban community should = be left to promote (conservative) Lojban unopposed (and therefore must not = be required to promote logical language).

>=C2= =A0 Indeed, there is a strong antipathy to other "logical languages&qu= ot;, which I admit to sharing; I'm simply not interested, and never hav= e been - languages are too hard for me to learn, and IMHO too difficult to = properly "invent" with the complete full documentation needed for= new people to learn and use them.=C2=A0 So I hope selpa'i will forgive= me if I don't look at his own efforts at a new "logical language&= quot;.

This is all true, except that the Lojban = that Lojbab endorses is not a logical language, for all that it might false= ly advertise itself as such.=C2=A0

The antipathy Lojbab= describes exists because Lojban seeks to accrue users and promotes itself = by falsely claiming to be a logical language. Any logical language is there= fore a rival to Lojban. And Lojban's false claim to be a logical langua= ge, coupled with its comparative fame, is an obstacle to -- a distraction f= rom -- the promotion of logical language.




So LLG can adopt such research, if some LLG members want to do so, but unti= l then LLG considers supporting Lojban to be the best way to promote the pu= rposes described in the Bylaws.

Again, patent bullshit.=C2=A0


Whi= le I would be only too delighted for the LLG to promote the purposes descri= bed in the Bylaws, that would entail deprecating Lojban in its baselined an= d current forms. Given that LLG recruits from the Lojban community rather t= han from the logical language community, it is obviously and not unreasonab= ly the case that the large majority of LLG members prioritize the promotion= of Lojban over the promotion of the purposes described in the Bylaws.=C2= =A0

--And.
=

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members

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