Received: from localhost ([::1]:39064 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUxhA-0000va-2L; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:39:44 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f48.google.com ([74.125.82.48]:42796) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUxgd-0000tG-VV for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:39:13 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f48.google.com with SMTP id b141so2492299wme.1 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:39:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=1rZInB7x6gW/IJM9w6m+4PDZRo8nXN9QxRfN2z7TWlk=; b=dyP5M63eVJ/p5LqwfJ87bRsgHlCrV/druu5Kl9OLBEVH9wcKHe0TgP8FuctftuJ9x5 3zko+ZfocC0zcHmVvHru1+GCupCn5M3PKMxAZsojjy2fdYXPeHIgg5KlTfDc+ypXgyMY SHXXZaDpkAHPv5sKOoXZHN6bADhNXCmBEX0FpWWLU0+3HWqBmwLA0wVR7dVzRhnNHElS XFXBpra4ENJwSDcdxG+D85u/epzpeO8nuDU42JOmCjKuJYXFdciSLL40BJVJJs3sWPe8 L0T6T1aUHkCzt+ELKJnlo2WgceKXgOhFXXt41SE5IyjidZUP9wAnp28gK1aygzadCmbO PXRg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=1rZInB7x6gW/IJM9w6m+4PDZRo8nXN9QxRfN2z7TWlk=; b=ANXDNb89ff3CbNpuszi4YCRl4Q9GanQIdyavYfyvmgE4En6BZjJODz6WcgmgV4LDx5 OMWJR6D1g72VvIOj1a5ONXFKiZH8CfOUp8aqfL5tQTZcsNANJNzPrO93raA8a+QlIXhI k4biJj5CDg8/WBwRnLSucJK39tHnXUIQPGSnPmDW/QO5q6mNc6KuBjAgsq3ykWYdzmN5 TN7LHOf1sRKgESMS3fows4e98w7rzuvIAOuh9jAJBlJ8PivnJCBWzj8PUJ8tJ6sU3bNM ITOflaNkXEHMxG5fJaK5FwGYmF8krglU2ZGfCTxTMbQjdxe56iNcZLCXGvbklZDkufGE apjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLuWQyCupyJUtP9kMr7NAMbDob5KC2ztcsKskG30OwhPqAZgqkD nYAJ5VifOFLiDwUfTvswtJtq6xtRAG/f3cgiKaVZ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBosPb08EZzaReJjH5urU21BDThkZj6jPes00BOppAOs7SKf11U4K5Lx87A83aCmx4jXoploCh3r1tRS6gUoA1HY= X-Received: by 10.80.177.153 with SMTP id m25mr46918549edd.181.1514565544786; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:39:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.173.219 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:38:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7074953.2veMK8YGUJ@caracal> <6c826210-9f71-1813-2957-7e5593ad18ed@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 19:38:24 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: BPFK X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4337123871399017843==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============4337123871399017843== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c228e49422d05617d4531" --f403045c228e49422d05617d4531 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" For completeness of terminology: Wikipedia: "Logical languages are meant to allow (or enforce) unambiguous statements." mentioning Lo**an and with an additional link to "Knowledge representation and reasoning" where CycL and RDF are mentioned. Colloquially being a "logical language" is attributed to Chinese, Turkish ... 2017-12-29 19:18 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : > I think that this has been covered in some detail elsewhere, but it is > germane to this discussion and I opine that this discussion is still > relevant to the overall purpose and general conceptual orientation of this > meeting, so explication should be provided. > > I would also like to have, listed here, all of the generic defining > qualities of a logical language (not just examples of such) and explanation > of how Lojban fails to satisfy that or those which it does. > > On Dec 29, 2017 11:14, "Gleki Arxokuna" > wrote: > >> And, what IS a logical language? Show us one. >> >> 2017-12-29 18:29 GMT+03:00 And Rosta : >> >>> >>> >>> On 26 Dec 2017 19:36, "Bob LeChevalier" wrote: >>> > The bylaws were formulated to broadly cover a variety of forms of >>> research into logical languages, and there has always been the possibility >>> of conducting or supporting such research. But to put it simply, no one has >>> been interested in such research EXCEPT in the form of promoting and >>> studying the use of Lojban. >>> >>> That statement is patently false and wilfully amnesiac. >>> >>> I was for many years the most vocal proponent of the LLG's mission to >>> explore logical language, as opposed to the mission to promote Lojban. As a >>> member of LLG and the Lojban community I eventually changed my position, >>> but this was because it became increasingly evident to me that the two >>> goals (of exploring and promoting logical language, versus promoting >>> Lojban) are in fact antithetical; within LLG and the Lojban community, a >>> victory for the one goal can be achieved only through the defeat of the >>> other; but success in the goal of promoting Lojban can be achieved only >>> within LLG and the Lojban community, whereas success in the goal of >>> promoting logical language can be achieved outside it; many promoters of >>> Lojban (as opposed to logical language) have invested much of their life's >>> work in the enterprise, and pursuing the failure of another's life's work >>> should be avoided where possible; therefore LLG and the Lojban community >>> should be left to promote (conservative) Lojban unopposed (and therefore >>> must not be required to promote logical language). >>> >>> > Indeed, there is a strong antipathy to other "logical languages", >>> which I admit to sharing; I'm simply not interested, and never have been - >>> languages are too hard for me to learn, and IMHO too difficult to properly >>> "invent" with the complete full documentation needed for new people to >>> learn and use them. So I hope selpa'i will forgive me if I don't look at >>> his own efforts at a new "logical language". >>> >>> This is all true, except that the Lojban that Lojbab endorses is not a >>> logical language, for all that it might falsely advertise itself as such. >>> >>> The antipathy Lojbab describes exists because Lojban seeks to accrue >>> users and promotes itself by falsely claiming to be a logical language. Any >>> logical language is therefore a rival to Lojban. And Lojban's false claim >>> to be a logical language, coupled with its comparative fame, is an obstacle >>> to -- a distraction from -- the promotion of logical language. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> So LLG can adopt such research, if some LLG members want to do so, but >>> until then LLG considers supporting Lojban to be the best way to promote >>> the purposes described in the Bylaws. >>> >>> >>> Again, patent bullshit. >>> >>> >>> While I would be only too delighted for the LLG to promote the purposes >>> described in the Bylaws, that would entail deprecating Lojban in its >>> baselined and current forms. Given that LLG recruits from the Lojban >>> community rather than from the logical language community, it is obviously >>> and not unreasonably the case that the large majority of LLG members >>> prioritize the promotion of Lojban over the promotion of the purposes >>> described in the Bylaws. >>> >>> --And. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --f403045c228e49422d05617d4531 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For completeness of terminology:
Wikipedia: "Logi= cal languages are meant to allow (or enforce) unambiguous statements."= mentioning Lo**an and with an additional link to "Knowledge represent= ation and reasoning" where CycL and RDF are mentioned.
Collo= quially being a "logical language" is attributed to Chinese, Turk= ish ...

2017-12-29 19:18 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks <curtis.w.franks@gmail.= com>:
I t= hink that this has been covered in some detail elsewhere, but it is germane= to this discussion and I opine that this discussion is still relevant to t= he overall purpose and general conceptual orientation of this meeting, so e= xplication should be provided.

I would also like to have, listed here, all of the generic defining qualit= ies of a logical language (not just examples of such) and explanation of ho= w Lojban fails to satisfy that or those which it does.

On Dec 29, 2017 11:14, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@g= mail.com> wrote:
And, what IS a logical language? Show us one.

2017-12-29 18:29 GMT= +03:00 And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>:


On 26 Dec 2017 19:36, "Bob LeC= hevalier" <l= ojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
> The bylaws were formulated to broadly cover a variety of forms of re= search into logical languages, and there has always been the possibility of= conducting or supporting such research. But to put it simply, no one has b= een interested in such research EXCEPT in the form of promoting and studyin= g the use of Lojban.

That statement is patently = false and wilfully amnesiac.
<= br>
I was for many years the m= ost vocal proponent of the LLG's mission to explore logical language, a= s opposed to the mission to promote Lojban. As a member of LLG and the Lojb= an community I eventually changed my position, but this was because it beca= me increasingly evident to me that the two goals (of exploring and promotin= g logical language, versus promoting Lojban) are in fact antithetical; with= in LLG and the Lojban community, a victory for the one goal can be achieved= only through the defeat of the other; but success in the goal of promoting= Lojban can be achieved only within LLG and the Lojban community, whereas s= uccess in the goal of promoting logical language can be achieved outside it= ; many promoters of Lojban (as opposed to logical language) have invested m= uch of their life's work in the enterprise, and pursuing the failure of= another's life's work should be avoided where possible; therefore = LLG and the Lojban community should be left to promote (conservative) Lojba= n unopposed (and therefore must not be required to promote logical language= ).

>=C2=A0 Indeed, there is a strong antipath= y to other "logical languages", which I admit to sharing; I'm= simply not interested, and never have been - languages are too hard for me= to learn, and IMHO too difficult to properly "invent" with the c= omplete full documentation needed for new people to learn and use them.=C2= =A0 So I hope selpa'i will forgive me if I don't look at his own ef= forts at a new "logical language".

Thi= s is all true, except that the Lojban that Lojbab endorses is not a logical= language, for all that it might falsely advertise itself as such.=C2=A0

The antipathy Lojbab describes exists because Lojban seek= s to accrue users and promotes itself by falsely claiming to be a logical l= anguage. Any logical language is therefore a rival to Lojban. And Lojban= 9;s false claim to be a logical language, coupled with its comparative fame= , is an obstacle to -- a distraction from -- the promotion of logical langu= age.




So LLG can adopt such research, if some LLG members want to do so, but unti= l then LLG considers supporting Lojban to be the best way to promote the pu= rposes described in the Bylaws.

Again, patent bullshit.=C2=A0


Whi= le I would be only too delighted for the LLG to promote the purposes descri= bed in the Bylaws, that would entail deprecating Lojban in its baselined an= d current forms. Given that LLG recruits from the Lojban community rather t= han from the logical language community, it is obviously and not unreasonab= ly the case that the large majority of LLG members prioritize the promotion= of Lojban over the promotion of the purposes described in the Bylaws.=C2= =A0
=

--And= .

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


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