Received: from localhost ([::1]:41296 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUyG9-00033A-NY; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 09:15:53 -0800 Received: from mail-yw0-f169.google.com ([209.85.161.169]:44287) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eUyFd-00030H-Bv for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 09:15:22 -0800 Received: by mail-yw0-f169.google.com with SMTP id m129so9598094ywb.11 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 09:15:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=xmJzH3fouzkQGwypkbJ5HRoi294h3IFNurEiEoiXy8Y=; b=RIuSnjMcJ9G+wWMr8EV3I06x00nzkMNYKX0wfJk0/7nbEbgfrT46fBlGQcUT/ZC3c0 xI4DmO1j4sr50LHR1DteKlKurq70jLeCtkOeTD5pvrXVmoAyOE1mp1VzENreamQwUPbG Xme4VZVGCBE6ZxsYHJNbUM3ooDgc7NQwPWTS0PNkeDl4bUfpWnSUETZdT23pz8NoysCs bejaxK/3Cv8ugZZCOyg3NMKU59qDsZXCOQQU/mn6zdITaG+eJQlmEtJotzHu0vXmli5O qYMCEr+I1tj/yGM5qprxKPC3E7Xgqnp34mitelg0ZV2RSIxfHtpOwkY9uLOov9z68+rq C4Pg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=xmJzH3fouzkQGwypkbJ5HRoi294h3IFNurEiEoiXy8Y=; b=S2YlzrEmYoQRS2iRdhezYUiwsWGSvmxmr6b9CTyVIU95lkJjeOArvoMU4CtnBntbb4 VxkaS+5phqmn/v/TX3f+fcHRUj83c+4U36RqWEf7R8bR1j9xqR+BysFAvQxFERcitFSN l5xSzUAXQQaUuEGMG5UEsVAOJfXIYAnnA0k95xSv0yPIKK8LyB2dixonbr1+MovTB/ku 5xoyk8AKUwZCf0emFd4BsWaYyT+Gtc8Jr8wCUurOI5qkq7Sb+/iurICyntbTiaIVi6XF jEBzyMGDpJy9cj8g9oyZIs1ktXEtDQMvNi1FgEQz2ZLcJu1rtzI4UIlGjnJZBeIyruDt Ua9A== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mL2+pEMYxhkh3tNQ4SlzvvCS8DJoIj41B3fVquBJus/0IN88+T5 mHkjYn8Ih+pjZ4bWtuHLPFmYX2wQp3zPPzRPf8A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBotOCFhoROihwJbAPK5toIdJzGtT0dQ7YzGT7g3+Ah05jzgqFDmgZ0QtBUmqALrz7Tt2TTDphGu1mZh53jtivcU= X-Received: by 10.129.175.72 with SMTP id x8mr24073901ywj.277.1514567714298; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 09:15:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.135.9 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 09:15:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.37.135.9 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 09:15:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Curtis Franks Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 12:15:13 -0500 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Motion proposal - Unofficialness Disclaimer X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2060013511899199337==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============2060013511899199337== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045f292899603b05617dc60e" --f403045f292899603b05617dc60e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that your concerns are not contrary to the original motion and can be explored and resolved later/elsewhere if the motion were to pass. We could consider the motion to be a general statement of LLG policy (albeit pertaining to only that particular website). The implementation would be worked out, in detail, by another body at another time. On Dec 29, 2017 06:27, "Gleki Arxokuna" wrote: > > > 2017-12-29 13:15 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : > >> On Dec 29, 2017 04:41, "Gleki Arxokuna" >> wrote: >> >> >> >> 2017-12-29 10:56 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : >> >>> Definitely in English. >>> >> >> So, non-English pages will continue to be official? >> >> >> Sorry, at least in English (as an option, but possibly one which is >> always used - in addition to the same notice in possibly other languages= ). >> Language should not impact officialness, or the need to disclaim under t= his >> provision. Does that answer your question/address your concern (I may be >> misunderstanding). >> >> >> >> I would also suggest that the language of the notification match the >>> primary non-Lojbanic language of the article or content. The exact word= ing >>> would have to be worked out later (and we could delegate such >>> responsibility and details). It might be helpful for the notice to incl= ude >>> a link to a page describing what the disclaimer means and how it transl= ates >>> into other languages; it should also automatically generate a category = (and >>> page listing all members of the category) for so-disclaimed pages/conte= nts >>> and add the relevant page or content's section to that category. >>> >>> I would add it either to the top of a page or section, as appropriate. >>> >>> The exact format, design, and immediacy of presence of the notice >>> (including its size, boldness/typeface characteristics, and background >>> color) would have to be figured out and authority over such matters sho= uld >>> be delegated. >>> >> >> to whom? >> >> >> I am not sure. Probably just a temporary commission >> > > Maybe you can propose something specific? E.g. the front page of > mw.lojban.org has the following text: > > "This web site is dedicated to documenting Lojban and the activities of > the Lojban-using community, and also serves as the official web site of t= he > Logical Language Group (LLG), a non-profit organization founded in 1987 t= o > promote the scientific study of the relationships between language, thoug= ht > and human culture." > > There are also several links in the footer of every page, one of which > could lead to a localizable page with a disclaimer. > > I can do the technical stuff (add necessary templates so that the text > becomes localizable) but not the design and not the actual text of the > disclaimer. > > > >> which would establish the guidelines and approve of the wording in each >> language of concern and the first version of the notice which would be >> implemented. After that point, the power would disperse to the wiki's >> community (in the case of practical design and application) and to the L= LG >> (in the case of oversight and establishment of regulation). The LLG very >> well might not technically have any power to enforce its regulations >> (including this motion), but it would at least have an official position >> and would ostracize/encourage the rejection of the wiki if the wiki >> community did not comply. >> > >> >> >>> >>> (I am aware that such notices exist. The motion would make notice >>> obligatory - insofar as that is possible). >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> Can someone link all relevant portions of old discussions about this >>> matter after the motion gains a second or if it seems like providing th= at >>> information may be helpful for some ongoing, lively conversation? >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> I would like to remind everyone that proposal of a motion or its >>> seconding does not imply a vote in approval of or for that or any >>> resultant/finalized motion. >>> >>> On Dec 29, 2017 2:42 AM, "Gleki Arxokuna" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks : >>>> >>>>> I move that: All non-official pages or content on *.lojban.org must >>>>> contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that the website is owned and >>>>> managed by voluntary >>>>> people, and that the marked contents are not necessarily harmonized >>>>> with the official design of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone per= fectly >>>>> comply with, official specifications of the same. >>>>> >>>>> (This motion is intended to satisfy part of guskant's desires, relate= d >>>>> elsewhere. I copied a quasi-motion by them nearly verbatim.) >>>>> >>>> >>>> In which language? We already have a message for pages in Lojban: >>>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre >>>> in English: >>>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre/en >>>> and probably in Japanese: >>>> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre/ja >>>> >>>> Should this message reflect the language currently selected by >>>> mediawiki's user? >>>> >>>> Where would you like to put such message? In the footer? >>>> >>>> ___ >>>>> >>>>> It is a little premature, but I raise the following concerns: >>>>> =E2=80=A2 How do we decide which content should be so disclaimed? Wha= t >>>>> constitutes "official" content for these purposes? How do we review c= ontent >>>>> and, later, disclaimers - particularly in a fashion which is quick en= ough >>>>> to handle edits made by users. >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Do we even have the authority to demand or enforce such dis= claimers? >>>>> The website is a wiki and, so, can be edited by anyone and can presum= ably >>>>> develop its own community standards. >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Is this disclaimer sufficient and sufficiently descriptive = for the >>>>> relevant purposes and desires? >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --f403045f292899603b05617dc60e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think that your concerns are not contrary to the origin= al motion and can be explored and resolved later/elsewhere if the motion we= re to pass. We could consider the motion to be a general statement of LLG p= olicy (albeit pertaining to only that particular website). The implementati= on would be worked out, in detail, by another body at another time.

On Dec 29, 2017 06:= 27, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2017-12-29 13:15 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com>:
On Dec 29, 2017 04:41, "Gleki Ar= xokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
2017-12-29 10:56 G= MT+03:00 Curtis Franks <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com>:<= br>
Defi= nitely in English.

So, non-English pa= ges will continue to be official?
<= /blockquote>

Sorry, at least in English= (as an option, but possibly one which is always used - in addition to the = same notice in possibly other languages). Language should not impact offici= alness, or the need to disclaim under this provision. Does that answer your= question/address your concern (I may be misunderstanding).



I would also suggest that the language of the notification= match the primary non-Lojbanic language of the article or content. The exa= ct wording would have to be worked out later (and we could delegate such re= sponsibility and details). It might be helpful for the notice to include a = link to a page describing what the disclaimer means and how it translates i= nto other languages; it should also automatically generate a category (and = page listing all members of the category) for so-disclaimed pages/contents = and add the relevant page or content's section to that category.

I would add it either to the top of a page or section, as appropriate.

The exact format, design, and imme= diacy of presence of the notice (including its size, boldness/typeface char= acteristics, and background color) would have to be figured out and authori= ty over such matters should be delegated.

to whom?

I am n= ot sure. Probably just a temporary commission
=
Maybe you can propose something specific? E.g. the front pag= e of mw.lojban.org h= as the following text:

"This web site is dedi= cated to documenting Lojban and the activities of the Lojban-using communit= y, and also serves as the official web site of the Logical Language Group (= LLG), a non-profit organization founded in 1987 to promote the scientific s= tudy of the relationships between language, thought and human culture."= ;

There are also several links in the footer of ev= ery page, one of which could lead to a localizable page with a disclaimer.<= /div>

I can do the technical stuff (add necessary templa= tes so that the text becomes localizable) but not the design and not the ac= tual text of the disclaimer.

=C2=A0
which wo= uld establish the guidelines and approve of the wording in each language of= concern and the first version of the notice which would be implemented. Af= ter that point, the power would disperse to the wiki's community (in th= e case of practical design and application) and to the LLG (in the case of = oversight and establishment of regulation). The LLG very well might not tec= hnically have any power to enforce its regulations (including this motion),= but it would at least have an official position and would ostracize/encour= age the rejection of the wiki if the wiki community did not comply.

=C2=A0

(I am aware that suc= h notices exist. The motion would make notice obligatory - insofar as that = is possible).

___
<= div dir=3D"auto">
Can someone link all relevant = portions of old discussions about this matter after the motion gains a seco= nd or if it seems like providing that information may be helpful for some o= ngoing, lively conversation?

___

I would like to= remind everyone that proposal of a motion or its seconding does not imply = a vote in approval of or for that or any resultant/finalized motion.
<= /div>

On Dec 29, 2017 2:42 AM, "Gleki Arxokuna"= <gleki.= is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+03:00 Curtis Fr= anks <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com>:
I move that: All non-official pages or co= ntent on *.lojban.org=C2=A0must contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that the websi= te is owned and managed by voluntary
people, and that the marked contents are not necessarily harmonized with= the official design of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone perfectly com= ply with, official specifications of the same.

(This m= otion is intended to satisfy part of guskant's desires, related elsewhe= re. I copied a quasi-motion by them nearly verbatim.)

In which language? We already have a message = for pages in Lojban:=C2=A0
in English:
and probably in Japanese:
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Template:Jbocre/ja

Should this message reflect the language currently se= lected by mediawiki's user?

Where would you li= ke to put such message? In the footer?

___

It is a little premature, but I raise the following concerns:=
=E2=80=A2 How do we decide which content should be so disclaimed? What= constitutes "official" content for these purposes? How do we rev= iew content and, later, disclaimers - particularly in a fashion which is qu= ick enough to handle edits made by users.
=E2=80=A2 Do we even h= ave the authority to demand or enforce such disclaimers? The website is a w= iki and, so, can be edited by anyone and can presumably develop its own com= munity standards.
=E2=80=A2 Is this disclaimer sufficient and su= fficiently descriptive for the relevant purposes and desires?
<= /div>
_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members

--f403045f292899603b05617dc60e-- --===============2060013511899199337== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --===============2060013511899199337==--