Received: from localhost ([::1]:51164 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eV0ay-0003sK-Rf; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:45:32 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f42.google.com ([74.125.82.42]:36672) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eV0aR-0003q0-QD for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:45:00 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f42.google.com with SMTP id b76so49691564wmg.1 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:44:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=FhErUvMTCg3bvJ2VyPlG8MWgwbAEeQ5PHIEP/DvIirM=; b=oUoZAw/v37lzbxrp7/9OI6xknvGF3BlDvALrGseppUMcrdpnBVXr3xL5pz5kMfbv5N TPBIgvz/+Uj/he5x6pSKYRuKVn/dSfQQm1wLbOq83eOhWI1l950LLKFBF4+MSbzhmiMJ PJxBiRUbGEQtz8uKa8gGZKcD6VfXIu+TFBNe8wZ6KwnaQwqpMw2xahBrljUNNbFuJRWc U3Guy0INr1WKqsHkaOV8w9S3lzgJWyGaOTtGVpBHucjiaa7sAbwSx1vQDo3dGb1BZP8s 919mfI6/yI0DOihrELkPH5AsgYg4Jy8SbaeG86aGFcRiWjacb0dqJNJinI7pTYgx93Ux Tnpw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=FhErUvMTCg3bvJ2VyPlG8MWgwbAEeQ5PHIEP/DvIirM=; b=Fn0P7ktcHNHbwN0u+zkHvsVyTt4m/FG8unT2UPPMb4EuzgNWwDMmLQWMoToQk9WVcK S794nncN/TeVMad/XolPUyRnyxM2wRS28rpurmtzOgtCq4hG2JdMOuapC12xDWWFOYcV lsmOig/W0CCoyfMys8VfXPi8qejLn8NuipeErcfuTbgthzdvn0nYx1X5dvKlfk3rvZdL nZ0hnMHUwVGucfh5D5AF6cLSE5n07CTwhGC5deYhBDM8geywPYZxIZjkM7tM/QfmI785 PzG7VVdpsMExkI1nblGiHr5XN5TJW2FVC7G+ksRr8Nkb/jbLZgjsdQUMXPEhemEBc5sC cnhQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mJ0DbM+2L7UBpZsJ7VyEYZzCFXsRerDiNHlfDiyFUwEQoITZI1O 5J6VbnwZTEUVNILqX27KMMqjdaMiuD/mCANxzg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBot7MmLZNuTdAwM+gcgyxEBKwUW4GGUo/hixWgLhwfM1oAj5lKy5sYApK+rJaEIVf0eI+UF5iKihRL7jZAZ9K2Q= X-Received: by 10.80.139.180 with SMTP id m49mr47982571edm.36.1514576692951; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:44:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.173.219 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 11:44:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7074953.2veMK8YGUJ@caracal> <6c826210-9f71-1813-2957-7e5593ad18ed@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 22:44:12 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: BPFK X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0785133375068437178==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============0785133375068437178== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c19578ec4bf1905617fdd06" --94eb2c19578ec4bf1905617fdd06 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" 2017-12-29 18:29 GMT+03:00 And Rosta : > > > On 26 Dec 2017 19:36, "Bob LeChevalier" wrote: > > The bylaws were formulated to broadly cover a variety of forms of > research into logical languages, and there has always been the possibility > of conducting or supporting such research. But to put it simply, no one has > been interested in such research EXCEPT in the form of promoting and > studying the use of Lojban. > > That statement is patently false and wilfully amnesiac. > > I was for many years the most vocal proponent of the LLG's mission to > explore logical language > And what were your actions? There still doesn't exist a logical language that has to be called "logical language" according to your terminology. > , as opposed to the mission to promote Lojban. As a member of LLG and the > Lojban community I eventually changed my position, but this was because it > became increasingly evident to me that the two goals (of exploring and > promoting logical language, versus promoting Lojban) are in fact > antithetical; within LLG and the Lojban community, a victory for the one > goal can be achieved only through the defeat of the other; but success in > the goal of promoting Lojban can be achieved only within LLG and the Lojban > community, whereas success in the goal of promoting logical language can be > achieved outside it; many promoters of Lojban (as opposed to logical > language) have invested much of their life's work in the enterprise, and > pursuing the failure of another's life's work should be avoided where > possible; therefore LLG and the Lojban community should be left to promote > (conservative) Lojban unopposed (and therefore must not be required to > promote logical language). > > > Indeed, there is a strong antipathy to other "logical languages", which > I admit to sharing; I'm simply not interested, and never have been - > languages are too hard for me to learn, and IMHO too difficult to properly > "invent" with the complete full documentation needed for new people to > learn and use them. So I hope selpa'i will forgive me if I don't look at > his own efforts at a new "logical language". > > This is all true, except that the Lojban that Lojbab endorses is not a > logical language, for all that it might falsely advertise itself as such. > > The antipathy Lojbab describes exists because Lojban seeks to accrue users > and promotes itself by falsely claiming to be a logical language. Any > logical language is therefore a rival to Lojban. And Lojban's false claim > to be a logical language, coupled with its comparative fame, is an obstacle > to -- a distraction from -- the promotion of logical language. > > > > > So LLG can adopt such research, if some LLG members want to do so, but > until then LLG considers supporting Lojban to be the best way to promote > the purposes described in the Bylaws. > > > Again, patent bullshit. > > > While I would be only too delighted for the LLG to promote the purposes > described in the Bylaws, that would entail deprecating Lojban in its > baselined and current forms. Given that LLG recruits from the Lojban > community rather than from the logical language community, it is obviously > and not unreasonably the case that the large majority of LLG members > prioritize the promotion of Lojban over the promotion of the purposes > described in the Bylaws. > > --And. > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --94eb2c19578ec4bf1905617fdd06 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2017-12-29 18:29 GMT+03:00 And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>:


= On 26 Dec 2017 19:36, "Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
> The bylaws were formulated to bro= adly cover a variety of forms of research into logical languages, and there= has always been the possibility of conducting or supporting such research.= But to put it simply, no one has been interested in such research EXCEPT i= n the form of promoting and studying the use of Lojban.

That statement is patently false and wilfully amnesiac.

I was for many years the most vocal proponent of the LLG's m= ission to explore logical language

<= /div>
And what were your actions?
There still doesn't exi= st a logical language that has to be called "logical language" ac= cording to your terminology.

=C2=A0
, as opposed to the mission to= promote Lojban. As a member of LLG and the Lojban community I eventually c= hanged my position, but this was because it became increasingly evident to = me that the two goals (of exploring and promoting logical language, versus = promoting Lojban) are in fact antithetical; within LLG and the Lojban commu= nity, a victory for the one goal can be achieved only through the defeat of= the other; but success in the goal of promoting Lojban can be achieved onl= y within LLG and the Lojban community, whereas success in the goal of promo= ting logical language can be achieved outside it; many promoters of Lojban = (as opposed to logical language) have invested much of their life's wor= k in the enterprise, and pursuing the failure of another's life's w= ork should be avoided where possible; therefore LLG and the Lojban communit= y should be left to promote (conservative) Lojban unopposed (and therefore = must not be required to promote logical language).

>=C2=A0 Indeed, there is a strong antipathy to other "= logical languages", which I admit to sharing; I'm simply not inter= ested, and never have been - languages are too hard for me to learn, and IM= HO too difficult to properly "invent" with the complete full docu= mentation needed for new people to learn and use them.=C2=A0 So I hope selp= a'i will forgive me if I don't look at his own efforts at a new &qu= ot;logical language".
This is all true, exc= ept that the Lojban that Lojbab endorses is not a logical language, for all= that it might falsely advertise itself as such.=C2=A0

= The antipathy Lojbab describes exists because Lojban seeks to accrue users = and promotes itself by falsely claiming to be a logical language. Any logic= al language is therefore a rival to Lojban. And Lojban's false claim to= be a logical language, coupled with its comparative fame, is an obstacle t= o -- a distraction from -- the promotion of logical language.


<= br>

So LLG can adopt such research, if some LLG members want to do so, but unti= l then LLG considers supporting Lojban to be the best way to promote the pu= rposes described in the Bylaws.

Again, patent bullshit.=C2=A0


Whi= le I would be only too delighted for the LLG to promote the purposes descri= bed in the Bylaws, that would entail deprecating Lojban in its baselined an= d current forms. Given that LLG recruits from the Lojban community rather t= han from the logical language community, it is obviously and not unreasonab= ly the case that the large majority of LLG members prioritize the promotion= of Lojban over the promotion of the purposes described in the Bylaws.=C2= =A0
<= br>
--And.

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


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