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[67.86.128.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i5sm26597505qta.97.2017.12.31.09.02.13 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 31 Dec 2017 09:02:14 -0800 (PST) From: Riley Martinez-Lynch Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 12:02:11 -0500 References: <6c826210-9f71-1813-2957-7e5593ad18ed@lojban.org> <0bd3827c-a523-3356-8107-d30854d9d466@selpahi.de> To: llg-members@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <0bd3827c-a523-3356-8107-d30854d9d466@selpahi.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: BPFK X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1396178733589975718==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============1396178733589975718== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6A238B50-E8CB-42B5-B3D6-DD8AAB449C1B" --Apple-Mail=_6A238B50-E8CB-42B5-B3D6-DD8AAB449C1B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Regarding Curtis=E2=80=99 motions, particularly the second, I=E2=80=99d = like to note that the bylaws that were quoted earlier in the meeting as = not mentioning =E2=80=9Clojban=E2=80=9D are the bylaws as they existed = prior to the amendments which were made in 2003 which added this = language: In the furtherance of its purposes as stated above, The Logical Language = Group, Inc. shall place priority on support of the community of persons = learning, using, experimenting with, and promoting the language known as = "Lojban - A Realization of Loglan" or alternatively "Lojban=E2=80=9D. The amendments were not =E2=80=9Censcrolled" until many years later, = which may be responsible for any confusion on this point. I consider the current text of article 2 section 1 to be broad enough, = for better or worse, to include investigation, implementation, = experimentation, and support of any "artificially-engineered natural = language=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99m inclined to support narrowing that = mission to emphasize =E2=80=9Clogical=E2=80=9D languages, as implied in = our name, but I think we ought to be careful about the language that we = use to define such a thing. Part of the problem space includes defining = the problem, so there=E2=80=99s a risk that whatever additional = commitments we might take on could become a liability down the road. I = would prefer that we avoid commitments that might be interpreted to = constrain the design decisions or implementation details of such a = language. That includes specifying a =E2=80=9Clojban derivative=E2=80=9D.=20= That said, I applaud and stand ready to support any effort to document = and use any language that we recognize as aligned with the goals of = logical language, with or without an amendment or resolution, and I = think the bylaws justify that position. And (whom I hope I understand is retracting the resignation he submitted = a couple of months back!) imagined a world where "xorxes and selpa'i had = been given carte blanche to write CLL 2.0 according to their own best = judgement=E2=80=9D. I would like challenge the idea that this = organization is exercising any material prior restraint that would = prevent such a thing from happening. If John Cowan had not produced a = work that aligned with the goals of this organization, it wouldn=E2=80=99t= have received the support that it has. Likewise if xorxes and selpa=E2=80= =99i were to collaborate on a new reference grammar, whether it be = called =E2=80=9CCLL 2.0=E2=80=9D or anything else, I think we=E2=80=99d = be well within our rights and duties to consider how we wanted to = support that work and describe it in relationship to our mission. > On Dec 31, 2017, at 10:25 AM, selpahi wrote: >=20 > Curtis moved the following: >> I move: >> The LLG shall adopt, as a principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any = other principal goals), the intention of exploration and promotion of = logical language(s) in general, subject to the following definitional = framework and description: Presupposing that everything effable (i.e. = linguistically expressible) can be represented as a predicate-argument = structure (PAS), a logical language (in the technical sense, i.e. = loglang) is one that (syntactically-)unambiguously bidirectionally = encodes an unlimited number of PASs. (Also known by some as the = 'monoparsing' property. The relevant bidirectionality is conversion both = from PAS to phonological form and from phonological form to PAS.) >=20 > Seconded. >=20 >> Motion 2. A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other = principal goals) is promotion of Lojban (regardless of its status as a = logical language) as defined by documents endorsed by the LLG. >> I likewise (same wording) so move, with terms as described in my = immediately previous motion in this message. >=20 > Seconded. >=20 >> Motion 3. A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other = principal goals) is creation of a Lojban derivative that is a logical = language. I likewise so move, with terms as described in my immediately = previous two motions in this message. >=20 > Seconded. >=20 > My second does not include Curtis' amendment, because I consider the = definition of loglanghood given by And adequate as is. A language that = does not fulfill those (fundamental) requirements is not a logical = language ("loglang"). >=20 > ~~~mi'e la selpa'i >=20 > --- > Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --Apple-Mail=_6A238B50-E8CB-42B5-B3D6-DD8AAB449C1B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Regarding Curtis=E2=80=99 motions, = particularly the second, I=E2=80=99d like to note that the bylaws that = were quoted earlier in the meeting as not mentioning =E2=80=9Clojban=E2=80= =9D are the bylaws as they existed prior to the amendments which were = made in 2003 which added this language:

In = the furtherance of its purposes as stated above, The Logical Language = Group, Inc. shall place priority on support of the community of persons = learning, using, experimenting with, and promoting the language known as = "Lojban - A Realization of Loglan" or alternatively = "Lojban=E2=80=9D.

The amendments were not =E2=80=9Censcrolled" = until many years later, which may be responsible for any confusion on = this point.

I consider = the current text of article 2 section 1 to be broad enough, for better = or worse, to include investigation, implementation, experimentation, and = support of any "artificially-engineered natural language=E2=80=9D. = I=E2=80=99m inclined to support narrowing that mission to emphasize = =E2=80=9Clogical=E2=80=9D languages, as implied in our name, but I think = we ought to be careful about the language that we use to define such a = thing. Part of the problem space includes defining the problem, so = there=E2=80=99s a risk that whatever additional commitments we might = take on could become a liability down the road. I would prefer that we = avoid commitments that might be interpreted to constrain the design = decisions or implementation details of such a language. That includes = specifying a =E2=80=9Clojban derivative=E2=80=9D. 

That said, I applaud and stand ready to support any = effort to document and use any language that we recognize as aligned = with the goals of logical language, with or without an amendment or = resolution, and I think the bylaws justify that position.

And (whom I hope I understand is retracting the = resignation he submitted a couple of months back!) imagined a world = where "xorxes and selpa'i had been given carte blanche to write CLL 2.0 = according to their own best judgement=E2=80=9D. I would like challenge = the idea that this organization is exercising any material prior = restraint that would prevent such a thing from happening. If John Cowan = had not produced a work that aligned with the goals of this = organization, it wouldn=E2=80=99t have received the support that it has. = Likewise if xorxes and selpa=E2=80=99i were to collaborate on a new = reference grammar, whether it be called =E2=80=9CCLL 2.0=E2=80=9D or = anything else, I think we=E2=80=99d be well within our rights and duties = to consider how we wanted to support that work and describe it in = relationship to our mission.

On Dec 31, 2017, at 10:25 AM, = selpahi <selpahi@selpahi.de> wrote:

Curtis= moved the following:
I= move:
The LLG shall adopt, as a principal goal of the LLG = (coequal with any other principal goals), the intention of exploration = and promotion of logical language(s) in general, subject to the = following definitional framework and description: Presupposing that = everything effable (i.e. linguistically expressible) can be represented = as a predicate-argument structure (PAS), a logical language (in the = technical sense, i.e. loglang) is one that (syntactically-)unambiguously = bidirectionally encodes an unlimited number of PASs. (Also known by some = as the 'monoparsing' property. The relevant bidirectionality is = conversion both from PAS to phonological form and from phonological form = to PAS.)

Seconded.

=    Motion 2. A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with = any other principal goals) is promotion of Lojban (regardless of its = status as a logical language) as defined by documents endorsed by the = LLG.
I likewise (same wording) so move, with terms as = described in my immediately previous motion in this message.

Seconded.

=    Motion 3. A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with = any other principal goals) is creation of a Lojban derivative that is a = logical language. I likewise so move, with terms as described in my = immediately previous two motions in this message.

Seconded.

My second does not include Curtis' amendment, because I = consider the definition of loglanghood given by And adequate as is. A = language that does not fulfill those (fundamental) requirements is not a = logical language ("loglang").

~~~mi'e la = selpa'i

---
Diese E-Mail = wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft.
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