Received: from localhost ([::1]:38854 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eWqLn-0003pe-PB; Wed, 03 Jan 2018 13:13:27 -0800 Received: from mail-wr0-f182.google.com ([209.85.128.182]:37169) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eWqLG-0003oP-HF for llg-members@lojban.org; Wed, 03 Jan 2018 13:12:56 -0800 Received: by mail-wr0-f182.google.com with SMTP id f8so3129982wre.4 for ; Wed, 03 Jan 2018 13:12:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=hAd1pkGC1exfvwujXkvsOITp5adNZFRqgQW7q5FkJqE=; b=Hw/JZnTayHC8w2BDcSXXGU0hwc5OFuhlHrFUo/BQ726a9G+90oZP4K3XKm8AMWrRYq KZL9zd2cLr6Q8BbcTNaDoQ7fBzTG8M4JRfKfZcbtRU37yM6nDc+Rc5G3aojVbe3f1fRH lNxugCyGo2dZPLd4SjjHCe9U0K/HvkkU+1FSAbFUXT/VjjBHDM6kOAREMN5gXW74n30c XZFQ7GHTJi0e2llpkQIAuWGj4Dcrr19BJZA4/bEcfTSrrlasysIOvf8mf3x8jPFVIuel 31NbsE+iV4k74k5d4tm8D51KjMQFDVCommq3M2nqVAiGHwi4AfDPKc9kMFAmuQJd0WP+ nacg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=hAd1pkGC1exfvwujXkvsOITp5adNZFRqgQW7q5FkJqE=; b=i1tIEAfq6OmQArYxP9nwRP5yD1OjQYF1MPL4XOBuoK6qBv4UM39jFERJHgegopP6vB OxUxPVa6+K3acAVZzbFrkC/DrCN0b+pTBUvzWut5XBKT2diNZtJNghwIdemoo/R2x44N G2ma8tV7+Tnrt6Z8H1Bwh2ItFk8UlNC4zaJJEz8WLmRFM0lPEA8DUBiY4IpUT3J6fGHZ Q55Rcd/1PY2JewKELDQhD4gylbALlYSdMUUFn8IISNPwe2V+l7ZqtoE8PIcybUbqhAn6 fTJOBfdqiD0S8ahBCynVfUoI/QLIAkCBH43QXR3bou55GA7JHZ/2NCW3wukWQjH+12aU kWNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLTzFZ/ZMqFW+yIPB7eltBanH9+y9KcLNrXgOYxm7P0MafKwWaU xc/aIciWBczeKH5CR1kGTHmj/jmbS6PBIVrJFEwm2O3L X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBot2TZ5amn8nx46vVzVEX9YRAhDCuNPIu3q9Vn4vQh+L9apnFjzx+RN04ohb3+SFG/SjyzRF9iokmLsY6mVb58Y= X-Received: by 10.223.148.97 with SMTP id 88mr2916074wrq.265.1515013966828; Wed, 03 Jan 2018 13:12:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.54.204 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Jan 2018 13:12:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: John Cowan Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 16:12:26 -0500 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Spam_score: -4.2 X-Spam_score_int: -41 X-Spam_bar: ---- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: Elephant X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8423730923338853797==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============8423730923338853797== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0d2aa852a8c70561e5ad13" --94eb2c0d2aa852a8c70561e5ad13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See http://compendium.open.ac.uk/institute/about.htm for Compendium, an implementation of IBIS, the mental technology behind Elephant. However, AFAIK Compendium is a desktop tool only without a Web interface; AFAIK there is no Web or email based IBIS tool yet. On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 3:06 PM, Creative Care Services < comcaresvcs@gmail.com> wrote: > I took a look and it seemed to mostly be a mind map, which is the basic > idea as I understand what Cowen wrote. Is there a limit on text length an= d > can you view the document in linear form? > > .karis. > > On Jan 2, 2018 00:25, "Gleki Arxokuna" wrote= : > >> I suggest https://wust.space/ although adding reply functionality and >> "likes/upvotes" might be necessary. >> >> 2018-01-02 4:42 GMT+03:00 Creative Care Services = : >> >>> I can see many uses of the Elephant system beyond BPFK decisions, one o= f >>> which is how to run these meetings in the future. That is why I ask tha= t >>> further discussion on this topic transfer to this new thread. >>> >>> .karis. >>> >>> On Dec 31, 2017 13:51, "selpahi" wrote: >>> >>>> The BPFK was empowered to determine its own decision-making process by >>>> the BPFK reauthorization charter [1]. In 2015, when that motion passed= , the >>>> BPFK was coming out of a long "bureaucratic blockade" and the new BPFK >>>> membership was happy to work under less bureaucracy. This worked quite= well >>>> for the first year or so, but it started to show deficiencies as the >>>> honeymoon phase ended. >>>> >>>> The BPFK started to run into issues that weren't that easily decidable >>>> due to there being different conflicting interests and ideals, and, th= ere >>>> being no clear decision-making process in place, it became hard to mak= e >>>> progress at that point. >>>> >>>> Even though the BPFK has the right to make up its own rules, it might >>>> be a good idea to ask the wider LLG membership for suggestions as to h= ow a >>>> more effective decision-making process could be devised, and how the >>>> committee could be structured more effectively. >>>> >>>> guskant expressed the following (on the main list): >>>> >>>>> I think the problem is caused by the structure of the committee. >>>>> >>>> >>>> (and I would like to hear from her what she thinks could be improved >>>> about the structure of the committee) >>>> >>>> and gleki has expressed in this meeting a desire for clarification on >>>> the BPFK's workings. >>>> >>>> There's also the question of what the role of the chair should be, and >>>> more specifically, what powers the chair should have. >>>> >>>> A pertinent quote by Gregorio Guidi from the recent, very long, thread >>>> on the main list called "CLL and modern Lojban" [2]: >>>> >>>> What if there is no consensus? Well, the BPFK has a formal Chair. Why >>>>> not having him have the final word on what goes in and goes out, when >>>>> consensus cannot be reached? >>>>> >>>> >>>> That thread actually touched on the questions I'm addressing in the >>>> present email. There were several interesting ideas presented in the >>>> thread, but it was all mixed in with other somewhat unrelated topics a= nd >>>> there was no clear result. >>>> >>>> Some important points to me are: >>>> >>>> * How should the BPFK make decisions? This is a broader question than >>>> which type of voting should be used. A fundamental set of rules that b= oth >>>> facilitates good decision-making and prevents premature decisions shou= ld be >>>> put in place. >>>> * How can it be guaranteed that the wider community will accept their >>>> decisions? I ask this because the BPFK members were not voted into the >>>> committee by a community-wide election. How can the BPFK achieve a hig= h >>>> level of acceptance such that its decisions will be accepted by the >>>> community and not be perceived as violence of a group whose power does= not >>>> seem justified. >>>> * What are the powers of the chair? >>>> >>>> ... and probably more that I'm forgetting right now. >>>> >>>> Most of us probably know about the old "dream" of the Elephant, >>>> proposed by John Cowan long ago: an issue-based information system tha= t >>>> keeps track of all the open (and closed) questions of the language. Se= e >>>> this link [3]. >>>> We still do not have such a system despite it obviously being a Good >>>> Thing and despite the fact that it's probably not that hard to create = (the >>>> community probably has more programmers than non-programmers). >>>> >>>> Anyway, I recently re-visited the Elephant and looked into different >>>> programs that would let me visualize the structure of an Elephant-like >>>> program to see if it would make BPFK discussions more structured. I cr= eated >>>> the following diagram and page as an example of what such a structure = could >>>> look like when applied to the kinds of problems the BPFK actually face= s, in >>>> this case the ongoing issue relating to {lo nu broda ba brode}: >>>> >>>> http://selpahi.de/BPFK_lonubrOdababrOde.html >>>> >>>> (Disclaimer: This is not an official page of the BPFK and is solely fo= r >>>> demonstration purposes.) >>>> >>>> Such diagrams can easily be created by hand for each open issue that i= s >>>> presented to the BPFK. This could either be done by the chair or by a >>>> selected BPFK member. >>>> >>>> However, while this is nice, it does not by itself solve the problem o= f >>>> coming to a satisfying conclusion. No matter how good the arguments fo= r or >>>> against a thing, there can and will be people who will not change thei= r >>>> minds. Those are the situations when we need clever rules to guide us = to >>>> the best possible solution (see the bullet points above). >>>> >>>> Please discuss. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> [1]: https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Reauthorization >>>> >>>> [2]: https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/e94H-wdh5gc/discussion >>>> >>>> [3]: https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Elephant >>>> >>>> --- >>>> Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft= . >>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --94eb2c0d2aa852a8c70561e5ad13 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
See=C2=A0http://compendium.open.ac.uk/institute/about.htm for Compen= dium, an implementation of IBIS, the mental technology behind Elephant.=C2= =A0 However, AFAIK Compendium is a desktop tool only without a Web interfac= e; AFAIK there is no Web or email based IBIS tool yet.

On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 3:06 PM, = Creative Care Services <comcaresvcs@gmail.com> wrote:
I took a look and it seem= ed to mostly be a mind map, which is the basic idea as I understand what Co= wen wrote. Is there a limit on text length and can you view the document in= linear form?

.karis.

On Jan 2, 2018= 00:25, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
I sugges= t=C2=A0https://wust.space= / although adding reply functionality and "likes/upvotes" mig= ht be necessary.

2018-01-02 4:42 GMT+03:00 Creative Care Services <= ;comcaresvcs@gma= il.com>:
= I can see many uses of the Elephant system beyond BPFK decisions, one of wh= ich is how to run these meetings in the future. That is why I ask that furt= her discussion on this topic transfer to this new thread.=C2=A0

.karis.=C2=A0

On Dec 31= , 2017 13:51, "selpahi" <selpahi@selpahi.de> wrote:
The BPFK was empowered to determine its ow= n decision-making process by the BPFK reauthorization charter [1]. In 2015,= when that motion passed, the BPFK was coming out of a long "bureaucra= tic blockade" and the new BPFK membership was happy to work under less= bureaucracy. This worked quite well for the first year or so, but it start= ed to show deficiencies as the honeymoon phase ended.

The BPFK started to run into issues that weren't that easily decidable = due to there being different conflicting interests and ideals, and, there b= eing no clear decision-making process in place, it became hard to make prog= ress at that point.

Even though the BPFK has the right to make up its own rules, it might be a = good idea to ask the wider LLG membership for suggestions as to how a more = effective decision-making process could be devised, and how the committee c= ould be structured more effectively.

guskant expressed the following (on the main list):
=C2=A0I think the problem is caused by the structure of the committee.

(and I would like to hear from her what she thinks could be improved about = the structure of the committee)

and gleki has expressed in this meeting a desire for clarification on the B= PFK's workings.

There's also the question of what the role of the chair should be, and = more specifically, what powers the chair should have.

A pertinent quote by Gregorio Guidi from the recent, very long, thread on t= he main list called "CLL and modern Lojban" [2]:

What if there is no consensus? Well, the BPFK has a formal Chair. Why not h= aving him have the final word on what goes in and goes out, when consensus = cannot be reached?

That thread actually touched on the questions I'm addressing in the pre= sent email. There were several interesting ideas presented in the thread, b= ut it was all mixed in with other somewhat unrelated topics and there was n= o clear result.

Some important points to me are:

* How should the BPFK make decisions? This is a broader question than which= type of voting should be used. A fundamental set of rules that both facili= tates good decision-making and prevents premature decisions should be put i= n place.
* How can it be guaranteed that the wider community will accept their decis= ions? I ask this because the BPFK members were not voted into the committee= by a community-wide election. How can the BPFK achieve a high level of acc= eptance such that its decisions will be accepted by the community and not b= e perceived as violence of a group whose power does not seem justified.
* What are the powers of the chair?

... and probably more that I'm forgetting right now.

Most of us probably know about the old "dream" of the Elephant, p= roposed by John Cowan long ago: an issue-based information system that keep= s track of all the open (and closed) questions of the language. See this li= nk [3].
We still do not have such a system despite it obviously being a Good Thing = and despite the fact that it's probably not that hard to create (the co= mmunity probably has more programmers than non-programmers).

Anyway, I recently re-visited the Elephant and looked into different progra= ms that would let me visualize the structure of an Elephant-like program to= see if it would make BPFK discussions more structured. I created the follo= wing diagram and page as an example of what such a structure could look lik= e when applied to the kinds of problems the BPFK actually faces, in this ca= se the ongoing issue relating to {lo nu broda ba brode}:

http://selpahi.de/BPFK_lonubrOdababrOde.html
(Disclaimer: This is not an official page of the BPFK and is solely for dem= onstration purposes.)

Such diagrams can easily be created by hand for each open issue that is pre= sented to the BPFK. This could either be done by the chair or by a selected= BPFK member.

However, while this is nice, it does not by itself solve the problem of com= ing to a satisfying conclusion. No matter how good the arguments for or aga= inst a thing, there can and will be people who will not change their minds.= Those are the situations when we need clever rules to guide us to the best= possible solution (see the bullet points above).

Please discuss.

--
[1]: https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Reauthori= zation

[2]: https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/e94H-wdh5gc/discussion

[3]: https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Elephant

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_______________________________________________
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Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


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Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


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