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[63.143.205.88]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q128sm4032283qkb.84.2018.01.05.11.30.35 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Jan 2018 11:30:35 -0800 (PST) From: Riley Martinez-Lynch Message-Id: <61CCB92E-11C6-4F17-9A63-AF3519E8416D@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 14:30:34 -0500 References: To: llg-members@lojban.org In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.5 X-Spam_score_int: -4 X-Spam_bar: / Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Proposal : Investigation of Unofficialness X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0851686466879506063==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============0851686466879506063== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_169FADE8-6A7C-4938-90AD-59E6B7D11400" --Apple-Mail=_169FADE8-6A7C-4938-90AD-59E6B7D11400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I would support a motion like #5 which requires a disclaimer on = lojban.org content that might be easily confused as an official = publication of LLG. However, I think we should consider this alongside = the option of reserving lojban.org for official = publications of LLG. I strongly oppose a commission to "search for and monitor=E2=80=9D = (motion 4) others=E2=80=99 publications for lojban-related content with = the purpose of asking them to add a disclaimer to their content. Even if = we had the resources to squander =E2=80=94 and we don=E2=80=99t =E2=80=94 = it would reflect badly on lojban and the LLG. Imagine: Someone discovers lojban, composes a poem, and puts it up on = their blog. The next thing they know, they receive a = legalistically-worded email asking them to =E2=80=9Cprominently=E2=80=9D = declare that, in effect, they=E2=80=99re not really authorized to use = the language. This is not who we are. I am categorically opposed to motion 6, which would create some kind of = body to "oversee,=E2=80=8B regulate=E2=80=8B, and (insofar as possible) = enforce=E2=80=9D these policies. It is not and cannot be the business of = LLG to scour the world for =E2=80=9Cviolations=E2=80=9D of our policies, = let alone =E2=80=9Cenforce=E2=80=9D such policies. For that matter, = =E2=80=9Coversee=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cregulate=E2=80=9D don=E2=80=99t = harmonize with our mission, either: Our business is to =E2=80=9Cpromote=E2= =80=9D and to =E2=80=9Csupport=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 especially where it = comes to those =E2=80=9Cusing=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cexperimenting=E2=80=9D= with lojban.=20 Lojban, as I understand it, was born out of the desire to rescue logical = language from institutional strangulation. Let us not reverse course. > On Jan 5, 2018, at 1:00 PM, Curtis Franks = wrote: >=20 > The basic goal of this motion is to outsource all particular debate = and decisions concerning the realization of Motion 4 or Motion 5 to an = independent 'contracting' body with a fair amount of autonomy so that we = do not have to consider them here (or prior to the passage of those = motions). However, I still want the contracting body to be finite in = power (hence its restrictions and preset expiration), accountable to us, = well-organized so that objections or concerns raised by members while = discussing Motion 6 are pre=C3=ABmptively assuaged, and acting on our = behalf with the additional property that all of their work becomes LLG = policy, property, etc. once the contract ends (thus it would be under = LLG control and carry the weight of full policy, work, command, etc. of = the LLG pursuant to Motion 4 or Motion 5 or other motions). >=20 > On Jan 5, 2018 09:51, "Creative Care Services" > wrote: > In addition to the two other proposals regarding unofficial content, = included below because this one refers to them, Curtis pointed out that = he had made three rather than two on this topic. The one we are = considering here is listed below as number six. >=20 > This motion is now waiting to see if anyone chooses to second it.=20 >=20 > .karis.=20 >=20 >=20 > Concerning Unofficial Social Media Presences >=20 > Motion 4: "The LLG shall adopt an official policy that the LLG or some = body constituted by it for such purpose shall search for and monitor = social media or blog platforms, accounts, pages, profiles, groups, = communities, bots, etc. (hereafter called "entities") which in any way = whatsoever relate to, promote, or use Lojban or other LLG-adopted = logical languages and which are not clearly human, personal, = non-promoting, or unofficial - and that such a body shall request such = entities to prominently display a disclaimer stating that they are = unofficial and not endorsed by the LLG." > * I noted the following caveat with the original discussion which = became a motion: "(I do not think that we can enforce such requests, = just make them. But having an official policy about addressing them may = be good and gives us some moral 'standing')" > * Moved by me, seconded by gleki. >=20 > ___ >=20 > Unofficialness Disclaimer >=20 > Motion 5: "All non-official pages or content on *.lojban.org = must contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that = the website is owned and managed by voluntary people, and that the = marked contents are not necessarily harmonized with the official design = of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone perfectly comply with, official = specifications of the same." > * Moved by me, seconded by at least guskant and gleki. >=20 >=20 >=20 > **** Here it is! **** >=20 >=20 > Motion 6: "There shall be =E2=80=8Bauthorized, =E2=80=8Bestablished=E2=80= =8B, constituted,=E2=80=8B and organized a body=E2=80=8B - under and by = the authority of the LLG -=E2=80=8B which will=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B the = official implementation and application of LLG policy consistent with = and pursuant to the content of the aforementioned motion proposals (id = est: Motion 4 or Motion 5), provided the passage of at least one = thereof,=E2=80=8B or any similar policy of the LLG=E2=80=8B and which = shall search for either potential violations of the same or appropriate = content which should be so disclaimed (regardless of any implemented = policy or other mandate, and not pertaining to only websites or entities = or content subject to the aforementioned policies of the LLG); when it = finds such content but does not have the authority to pursue such = disclaimer with respect to said content, it shall notify the LLG of the = situation and its recommendations pertaining to such=E2=80=8B; =E2=80=8Bth= is motion shall be inactive, vacuous, and=E2=80=8B totally=E2=80=8B = ignored if the aforementioned motion proposals (Motion 4, Motion 5) both = do not pass.=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8BAll of this body's authority shall be = inferior to and subsumed by that of the LLG and shall be bounded by such = policy of the LLG and it shall not notify or attempt to regulate any = entity or content which is not subject to or the subject of such LLG = policy, although it may search for and review such content.=E2=80=8B It = will regulate the officially=E2=80=8B-=E2=80=8Bdesired design, = implementation, usage=E2=80=8B, and enforcement =E2=80=8Bof any such = notice, protocol, or disclaimer=E2=80=8B in the stead of the LLG = directly=E2=80=8B. The body shall consist of an odd number of members, = numbering at least five. The body shall publish all of its =E2=80=8Bdebate= , =E2=80=8Bdecision=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8Bs=E2=80=8B, = =E2=80=8Band work to the LLG and will notify the pertinent websites and = entities and other subjects, according to its own discretion or explicit = and direct command by the LLG, as to its standards and policies once = such are concretely established=E2=80=8B. Whilst the body is = constituted, the LLG=E2=80=8B shall retain total right of oversight and = control over, but not necessarily responsibility for, the body and any = of its ouput=E2=80=8B or decisions or actions or methods or works, as = well as any matter belonging to its domain of purpose=E2=80=8B or its = purview; the body shall govern and organize itself and design and = enforce its own internal rules, its external standards, etc. =E2=80=8Binso= far as such does not conflict with the decisions of the LLG=E2=80=8B, = including the contents of this motion=E2=80=8B. The body shall be = composed on the earliest of=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B the first 1 January or = first 1 June after its first membership is chosen, after which point it = shall exist for =E2=80=8Bfully =E2=80=8Bfour =E2=80=8Bcalendrical = =E2=80=8Byears and six =E2=80=8Bcalendrical =E2=80=8Bmonths and then = =E2=80=8Bshall =E2=80=8Bbe dissolved=E2=80=8B, disconstituted,=E2=80=8B = and discontinued in its entirety, unless its lifetime is extended=E2=80=8B= and such expiration is delayed in part or whole by explicit=E2=80=8B = official action of the LLG; upon it=E2=80=8Bs expiration=E2=80=8B = (described previously)=E2=80=8B, all of its =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2= =80=8Bpolicy, standards, work, decisions, and other output shall devolve = to=E2=80=8B and become the direct responsibility of=E2=80=8B the LLG and = shall persist and remain active and valid =E2=80=8Bas =E2=80=8Bpolicy, = standards, work, decisions, and other output=E2=80=8B (as appropriate) = of and in the responsibility of the LLG=E2=80=8B until the LLG=E2=80=8B = explicitly decides otherwise=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B or upon the = establishment and constitution of another body or organization under the = authority of the LLG which has or shall have purview which nonemptily = intersects that of the body herein described (in which case, all = aforementioned pertinent =E2=80=8Bpolicy, standards, work, decisions, = and other output=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8Bshall be inherited by and devolved to = it unless otherwise specified by the LLG); the =E2=80=8Bfirst = =E2=80=8Bmembership of the body =E2=80=8Bherein constituted =E2=80=8Bshall= be =E2=80=8Bselected in a manner which the LLG decides =E2=80=8Bto be = appropriate, which shall be determined later=E2=80=8B by the LLG; = thereafter, all other selection and regulation of its membership shall = be under the primary authority and review of the body itself, although = any regular selection of new membership shall not occur prior to the = elapse of fully two calendrical years and six calendrical months after = the original establishment of the body=E2=80=8B and selection of its = first membership; all membership applications and notice for such = application shall be public; eligibility requirements for membership to = the body shall be subject to review and change by the LLG and must be = explicitly established, with explicit permission of the LLG, prior to = the selection of any new membership of the body.=E2=80=8B The name of = the body herein constituted shall be determined by the LLG during or = prior to, and as part of, the selection of its first membership.=E2=80=8B"= >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members = >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --Apple-Mail=_169FADE8-6A7C-4938-90AD-59E6B7D11400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
I would support a motion like #5 which = requires a disclaimer on lojban.org content that might be easily confused as an = official publication of LLG. However, I think we should consider this = alongside the option of reserving lojban.org for official publications of = LLG.

I = strongly oppose a commission to "search for and monitor=E2=80=9D (motion = 4) others=E2=80=99 publications for lojban-related content with the = purpose of asking them to add a disclaimer to their content. Even if we = had the resources to squander =E2=80=94 and we don=E2=80=99t =E2=80=94 = it would reflect badly on lojban and the LLG.

Imagine: Someone discovers lojban, = composes a poem, and puts it up on their blog. The next thing they know, = they receive a legalistically-worded email asking them to = =E2=80=9Cprominently=E2=80=9D declare that, in effect, they=E2=80=99re = not really authorized to use the language. This is not who we = are.

I am = categorically opposed to motion 6, which would create some kind of body = to "oversee,=E2=80=8B regulate=E2=80=8B, and (insofar as possible) = enforce=E2=80=9D these policies. It is not and cannot be the = business of LLG to scour the world for =E2=80=9Cviolations=E2=80=9D of = our policies, let alone =E2=80=9Cenforce=E2=80=9D such policies. For = that matter, =E2=80=9Coversee=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cregulate=E2=80=9D = don=E2=80=99t harmonize with our mission, either: Our business is to = =E2=80=9Cpromote=E2=80=9D and to =E2=80=9Csupport=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 = especially where it comes to those =E2=80=9Cusing=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9Cexperimenting=E2=80=9D with lojban. 

Lojban, as I understand = it, was born out of the desire to rescue logical language from = institutional strangulation. Let us not reverse course.

On Jan 5, 2018, at 1:00 PM, Curtis Franks = <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com> wrote:

The basic goal of this motion is to outsource all particular = debate and decisions concerning the realization of Motion 4 or Motion 5 = to an independent 'contracting' body with a fair amount of autonomy so = that we do not have to consider them here (or prior to the passage of = those motions). However, I still want the contracting body to be finite = in power (hence its restrictions and preset expiration), accountable to = us, well-organized so that objections or concerns raised by members = while discussing Motion 6 are pre=C3=ABmptively assuaged, and acting on = our behalf with the additional property that all of their work becomes = LLG policy, property, etc. once the contract ends (thus it would be = under LLG control and carry the weight of full policy, work, command, = etc. of the LLG pursuant to Motion 4 or Motion 5 or other = motions).

On Jan 5, 2018 09:51, "Creative Care Services" = <comcaresvcs@gmail.com> wrote:
In addition to the two = other proposals regarding  unofficial content, included below = because this one refers to them, Curtis pointed out that he had made = three rather than two on this topic. The one we are considering here is = listed below as number six.

This motion is now waiting to see if anyone chooses to second = it. 

.karis. 


Concerning Unofficial Social Media = Presences

Motion 4: = "The LLG shall adopt an official policy that the LLG or some body = constituted by it for such purpose shall search for and monitor social = media or blog platforms, accounts, pages, profiles, groups, communities, = bots, etc. (hereafter called "entities") which in any way whatsoever = relate to, promote, or use Lojban or other LLG-adopted logical languages = and which are not clearly human, personal, non-promoting, or unofficial = - and that such a body shall request such entities to prominently = display a disclaimer stating that they are unofficial and not endorsed = by the LLG."
 * I noted the following caveat with the = original discussion which became a motion: "(I do not think that we can = enforce such requests, just make them. But having an official policy = about addressing them may be good and gives us some moral = 'standing')"
 * Moved = by me, seconded by gleki.

___

Unofficialness = Disclaimer

Motion 5: = "All non-official pages or content on *.lojban.org must contain a = disclaimer stating, at least, that the website is owned and managed by = voluntary people, and that the marked contents are not necessarily = harmonized with the official design of Lojban and may not reflect, let = alone perfectly comply with, official specifications of the same."
* Moved by me, = seconded by at least guskant and gleki.
<= /blockquote>
=



 **** Here it is! ****


Motion 6: "There shall be =E2=80=8Bauthorized, = =E2=80=8Bestablished=E2=80=8B, constituted,=E2=80=8B and organized a = body=E2=80=8B - under and by the authority of the LLG -=E2=80=8B which = will=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B the official implementation and application of = LLG policy consistent with and pursuant to the content of the = aforementioned motion proposals (id est: Motion 4 or Motion 5), provided the passage of at least one = thereof,=E2=80=8B or any similar policy of the LLG=E2=80=8B and which = shall search for either potential violations of the same or appropriate = content which should be so disclaimed (regardless of any implemented = policy or other mandate, and not pertaining to only websites or entities = or content subject to the aforementioned policies of the LLG); when it = finds such content but does not have the authority to pursue such = disclaimer with respect to said content, it shall notify the LLG of the = situation and its recommendations pertaining to such=E2=80=8B; =E2=80=8Bth= is motion shall be inactive, vacuous, and=E2=80=8B totally=E2=80=8B = ignored if the aforementioned motion proposals (Motion 4, Motion 5) both do not pass.=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8BAl= l of this body's authority shall be inferior to and subsumed by that of = the LLG and shall be bounded by such policy of the LLG and it shall not = notify or attempt to regulate any entity or content which is not subject = to or the subject of such LLG policy, although it may search for and = review such content.=E2=80=8B It will regulate the = officially=E2=80=8B-=E2=80=8Bdesired design, implementation, usage=E2=80=8B= , and enforcement =E2=80=8Bof any such notice, protocol, or = disclaimer=E2=80=8B in the stead of the LLG directly=E2=80=8B. The body = shall consist of an odd number of members, numbering at least five. The = body shall publish all of its =E2=80=8Bdebate, = =E2=80=8Bdecision=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8Bs=E2=80=8B, =E2=80=8B= and work to the LLG and will notify the pertinent websites and entities = and other subjects, according to its own discretion or explicit and = direct command by the LLG, as to its standards and policies once such = are concretely established=E2=80=8B. Whilst the body is constituted, the = LLG=E2=80=8B shall retain total right of oversight and control over, but = not necessarily responsibility for, the body and any of its ouput=E2=80=8B= or decisions or actions or methods or works, as well as any matter = belonging to its domain of purpose=E2=80=8B or its purview; the body = shall govern and organize itself and design and enforce its own internal = rules, its external standards, etc. =E2=80=8Binsofar as such does not = conflict with the decisions of the LLG=E2=80=8B, including the contents = of this motion=E2=80=8B. The body shall be composed on the earliest = of=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B the first 1 January or first 1 June after its first = membership is chosen, after which point it shall exist for =E2=80=8Bfully = =E2=80=8Bfour =E2=80=8Bcalendrical =E2=80=8Byears and six =E2=80=8Bcalendr= ical =E2=80=8Bmonths and then =E2=80=8Bshall =E2=80=8Bbe dissolved=E2=80=8B= , disconstituted,=E2=80=8B and discontinued in its entirety, unless its = lifetime is extended=E2=80=8B and such expiration is delayed in part or = whole by explicit=E2=80=8B official action of the LLG; upon it=E2=80=8Bs = expiration=E2=80=8B (described previously)=E2=80=8B, all of its = =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8Bpolicy, standards, work, decisions, = and other output shall devolve to=E2=80=8B and become the direct = responsibility of=E2=80=8B the LLG and shall persist and remain active = and valid =E2=80=8Bas =E2=80=8Bpolicy, standards, work, decisions, and = other output=E2=80=8B (as appropriate) of and in the responsibility of = the LLG=E2=80=8B until the LLG=E2=80=8B explicitly decides = otherwise=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B or upon the establishment and = constitution of another body or organization under the authority of the = LLG which has or shall have purview which nonemptily intersects that of = the body herein described (in which case, all aforementioned pertinent = =E2=80=8Bpolicy, standards, work, decisions, and other output=E2=80=8B = =E2=80=8Bshall be inherited by and devolved to it unless otherwise = specified by the LLG); the =E2=80=8Bfirst =E2=80=8Bmembership of the = body =E2=80=8Bherein constituted =E2=80=8Bshall be =E2=80=8Bselected in = a manner which the LLG decides =E2=80=8Bto be appropriate, which shall = be determined later=E2=80=8B by the LLG; thereafter, all other selection = and regulation of its membership shall be under the primary authority = and review of the body itself, although any regular selection of new = membership shall not occur prior to the elapse of fully two calendrical = years and six calendrical months after the original establishment of the = body=E2=80=8B and selection of its first membership; all membership = applications and notice for such application shall be public; = eligibility requirements for membership to the body shall be = subject to review and change by the LLG and must be explicitly = established, with explicit permission of the LLG, prior to the selection = of any new membership of the body.=E2=80=8B The name of the body herein = constituted shall be determined by the LLG during or prior to, and as = part of, the selection of its first membership.=E2=80=8B"
<= /div>

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members

_______________________________________________
Llg-members = mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members

= --Apple-Mail=_169FADE8-6A7C-4938-90AD-59E6B7D11400-- --===============0851686466879506063== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --===============0851686466879506063==--