Received: from localhost ([::1]:49070 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ebZhM-00023e-3E; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:27:16 -0800 Received: from mail-yw0-f176.google.com ([209.85.161.176]:38648) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ebZgp-00022j-Cj for llg-members@lojban.org; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:26:44 -0800 Received: by mail-yw0-f176.google.com with SMTP id m84so7467619ywd.5 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:26:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=eSN69Z7j8jFCn5Ja+SKhWC8ARAzpqZlipueQhqy+F5o=; b=c0FJHqSpQar7FSu0Xp3xVcO4oNPf2Tx66aBAc53D7Wg4uj/hTpk34jcL+aMvyNwpv9 ArenhI/kPVNFXel9MXaH7Ny58GxTn8KAVhcBr1ly3y9G6MoXBlVKh4uzme3HpDyc4is7 1qgrl52yFdxcs/th/9QotiC3Tv8QJjH20kHbKzqw0LRO1QTmgvY4bNa+a/q5+F0JGvKn tGRFj6MHSMJtuDYb0IpCwaXyQEPD7r3MvedO1S97BxvEYrx1OJ/ZJ/5WVuZ9UkIFyw3Y +IyT67jdbUJsZFjoMbYGM3FPvB880+GLynh5MkeOQszgtbFk5BJpSFlGRae/oGde2/PH uZvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=eSN69Z7j8jFCn5Ja+SKhWC8ARAzpqZlipueQhqy+F5o=; b=O+4t2rVWEvUGFqfoQczgNosFJDx2HH9jLq7sjmgC2OsqDl2mX0PhnQ5OvqSknmVTv2 1/7UXRrP9KcDBpOBnrCdNBHgD6CXCP5NNzWln8MCJ8dvNR7d5NU+ASu/+takoF/mhTY+ XlKybwoz53kw3Pmtka2j0FL+ayppSfOEiaKvZBmLEKGHcIVqEXgywa9g0mfwUe6keezA S7kSdie9u6AP5PzFbHZbDDQthP74LJXD5T4e5wldxGRCazd2IexYbb0k9HnmT4txvdph ulzlJQ0KUjyCBT5sb88sSiTgAyEELoLH7ALVDTnSir3qQRFxaEbN7uTudxDIP+OS8E6m QNwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytcufNINLk/Obcm10ka8oQYGUL/OBt7dM2LTpiNW6RABh782P/3v 4JlBCL/iFwF3+r313dynag++7cWxK25t5Jo90Kw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBot6eHmsUfV3fiS8dU/uWXbjvdSHIbv8ziqPAmb2GW6rEq8xXfPUDye0xRx+m2qj0uDZrvI5eS6JHFvCv0OYSy4= X-Received: by 10.13.202.19 with SMTP id m19mr704352ywd.70.1516141596742; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:26:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.199.2 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:26:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.37.199.2 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:26:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7074953.2veMK8YGUJ@caracal> <6c826210-9f71-1813-2957-7e5593ad18ed@lojban.org> From: Curtis Franks Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 17:26:35 -0500 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: BPFK X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1568086453447612648==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============1568086453447612648== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11482efc4d9b070562ec39b4" --001a11482efc4d9b070562ec39b4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =E2=80=A2 I vote "aye" for Motion #2. I would like And's input, as previously requested. Iff I do not explicitly log any votes on these following motions in the future, (then) I would like to be considered to have voted according to the following: =E2=80=A2 "Aye" on Motion #1 (not amended). =E2=80=A2 "Aye" on Motion #1 Amended (if that arises). =E2=80=A2 "Abstain" on Motion #3. If I do log future votes on those motions, then I want my position to be as given in those votes. On Dec 30, 2017 11:19, "Curtis Franks" wrote: > > > On Dec 30, 2017 07:44, "And Rosta" wrote: > > > > On 30 Dec 2017 03:46, "Curtis Franks" wrote: > > Okay, maybe we should take on both projects (exploration and promotion of > logical language in general and also, separately, the exploration and > promotion of Lojban (regardless of its status as a logical language)). We > might also want to create or establish a framework for the creation of a > Lojban derivative which is a logical language by all previously mentioned > standards. > > How do we do this? What proposals or orientations are actionable? > > > > I'd suggest three motions determining the principal aims of the LLG. > > Motion 1. A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other principal > goals) is exploration and promotion of logical language in general. > > > I move: > The LLG shall adopt, as a principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any > other principal goals), the intention of exploration and promotion of > logical language(s) in general, subject to the following definitional > framework and description: Presupposing that everything effable (i.e. > linguistically expressible) can be represented as a predicate-argument > structure (PAS), a logical language (in the technical sense, i.e. loglang= ) > is one that (syntactically-)unambiguously bidirectionally encodes an > unlimited number of PASs. (Also known by some as the 'monoparsing' > property. The relevant bidirectionality is conversion both from PAS to > phonological form and from phonological form to PAS.) > > > Motion 2. A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other principal > goals) is promotion of Lojban (regardless of its status as a logical > language) as defined by documents endorsed by the LLG. > > > I likewise (same wording) so move, with terms as described in my > immediately previous motion in this message. > > > Motion 3. A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other principal > goals) is creation of a Lojban derivative that is a logical language. > > > I likewise so move, with terms as described in my immediately previous tw= o > motions in this message. > > > For extra clarity, add in to each motion the definition of logical > language that I gave earlier. > > If Motion 1 were to pass, then I'd have some modest concrete suggestions > for what LLG could do (and I would apply to rejoin LLG). If Motion 3 were > to pass then I'd probably have some constructive contributions to make to > the ensuing discussion. > > --And. > > > > > On Dec 29, 2017 10:30, "And Rosta" wrote: > >> >> >> On 26 Dec 2017 19:36, "Bob LeChevalier" wrote: >> > The bylaws were formulated to broadly cover a variety of forms of >> research into logical languages, and there has always been the possibili= ty >> of conducting or supporting such research. But to put it simply, no one = has >> been interested in such research EXCEPT in the form of promoting and >> studying the use of Lojban. >> >> That statement is patently false and wilfully amnesiac. >> >> I was for many years the most vocal proponent of the LLG's mission to >> explore logical language, as opposed to the mission to promote Lojban. A= s a >> member of LLG and the Lojban community I eventually changed my position, >> but this was because it became increasingly evident to me that the two >> goals (of exploring and promoting logical language, versus promoting >> Lojban) are in fact antithetical; within LLG and the Lojban community, a >> victory for the one goal can be achieved only through the defeat of the >> other; but success in the goal of promoting Lojban can be achieved only >> within LLG and the Lojban community, whereas success in the goal of >> promoting logical language can be achieved outside it; many promoters of >> Lojban (as opposed to logical language) have invested much of their life= 's >> work in the enterprise, and pursuing the failure of another's life's wor= k >> should be avoided where possible; therefore LLG and the Lojban community >> should be left to promote (conservative) Lojban unopposed (and therefore >> must not be required to promote logical language). >> >> > Indeed, there is a strong antipathy to other "logical languages", >> which I admit to sharing; I'm simply not interested, and never have been= - >> languages are too hard for me to learn, and IMHO too difficult to proper= ly >> "invent" with the complete full documentation needed for new people to >> learn and use them. So I hope selpa'i will forgive me if I don't look a= t >> his own efforts at a new "logical language". >> >> This is all true, except that the Lojban that Lojbab endorses is not a >> logical language, for all that it might falsely advertise itself as such= . >> >> The antipathy Lojbab describes exists because Lojban seeks to accrue >> users and promotes itself by falsely claiming to be a logical language. = Any >> logical language is therefore a rival to Lojban. And Lojban's false clai= m >> to be a logical language, coupled with its comparative fame, is an obsta= cle >> to -- a distraction from -- the promotion of logical language. >> >> >> >> >> So LLG can adopt such research, if some LLG members want to do so, but >> until then LLG considers supporting Lojban to be the best way to promote >> the purposes described in the Bylaws. >> >> >> Again, patent bullshit. >> >> >> While I would be only too delighted for the LLG to promote the purposes >> described in the Bylaws, that would entail deprecating Lojban in its >> baselined and current forms. Given that LLG recruits from the Lojban >> community rather than from the logical language community, it is obvious= ly >> and not unreasonably the case that the large majority of LLG members >> prioritize the promotion of Lojban over the promotion of the purposes >> described in the Bylaws. >> >> --And. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > > --001a11482efc4d9b070562ec39b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=E2=80=A2 I vote "aye" for Motion #2.

I would like And's input, as prev= iously requested.
Iff I do not explicitly log any vo= tes on these following motions in the future, (then) I would like to be con= sidered to have voted according to the following:
= =E2=80=A2 "Aye" on Motion #1 (not amended).
=E2=80=A2 "Aye" on Motion #1 Amended (if that arises).
=E2=80=A2 "Abstain" on Motion #3.

If I do log future votes on those motion= s, then I want my position to be as given in those votes.

On Dec 30, 2017 11:19, = "Curtis Franks" <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com> wrote:


On Dec 30, 2017 07:44, &qu= ot;And Rosta" <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:


On 30 Dec 2017 03:46, "Curtis Franks" <curtis.w.franks@g= mail.com> wrote:
Okay, maybe we sh= ould take on both projects (exploration and promotion of logical language i= n general and also, separately, the exploration and promotion of Lojban (re= gardless of its status as a logical language)). We might also want to creat= e or establish a framework for the creation of a Lojban derivative which is= a logical language by all previously mentioned standards.

How do we do this? What proposals or orientati= ons are actionable?


I'd = suggest three motions determining the principal aims of the LLG.

Motion 1. A principal goal of the = LLG (coequal with any other principal goals) is exploration and promotion o= f logical language in general.

I move:
The LLG shall adopt, as a principal goal of the= LLG (coequal with any other principal goals), the intention of exploration= and promotion of logical language(s) in general, subject to the following = definitional framework and description:=C2=A0Presupposing that everything effable (i.e.= linguistically expressible) can be represented as a predicate-argument str= ucture (PAS), a logical language (in the technical sense, i.e. loglang) is = one that (syntactically-)unambiguously bidirectionally encodes an unlimited= number of PASs. (Also known by some as the 'monoparsing' property.= The relevant bidirectionality is conversion both from PAS to phonological = form and from phonological form to PAS.)

Motion 2.=C2=A0A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other principal goals) i= s promotion of Lojban (regardless of its status as a logical language) as d= efined by documents endorsed by the LLG.

I likewise (sa= me wording) so move, with terms as described in my immediately previous mot= ion in this message.


Motion 3.=C2=A0A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other principal goals)= is creation of a Lojban derivative that is a logical language.=C2=A0

I likewise so move, w= ith terms as described in my immediately previous two motions in this messa= ge.


For extra clarity, add in to each motion the= definition of logical language that I gave earlier.=C2=A0

= If Motion 1 were to pass, then I'd have some = modest concrete suggestions for what LLG could do (and I would apply to rej= oin LLG). If Motion 3 were to pass then I'd probably have some construc= tive contributions to make to the ensuing discussion.

--And.




On Dec 29, 2017 10:30, "And Rosta" <and.rosta@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:


On 26 Dec 2017 19:36, "Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote= :
> The bylaws were formula= ted to broadly cover a variety of forms of research into logical languages,= and there has always been the possibility of conducting or supporting such= research. But to put it simply, no one has been interested in such researc= h EXCEPT in the form of promoting and studying the use of Lojban.

That statement is patently false and wilfully amnesiac.

I was for many years the most vocal proponent of the LLG's = mission to explore logical language, as opposed to the mission to promote L= ojban. As a member of LLG and the Lojban community I eventually changed my = position, but this was because it became increasingly evident to me that th= e two goals (of exploring and promoting logical language, versus promoting = Lojban) are in fact antithetical; within LLG and the Lojban community, a vi= ctory for the one goal can be achieved only through the defeat of the other= ; but success in the goal of promoting Lojban can be achieved only within L= LG and the Lojban community, whereas success in the goal of promoting logic= al language can be achieved outside it; many promoters of Lojban (as oppose= d to logical language) have invested much of their life's work in the e= nterprise, and pursuing the failure of another's life's work should= be avoided where possible; therefore LLG and the Lojban community should b= e left to promote (conservative) Lojban unopposed (and therefore must not b= e required to promote logical language).

>=C2=A0 Ind= eed, there is a strong antipathy to other "logical languages", wh= ich I admit to sharing; I'm simply not interested, and never have been = - languages are too hard for me to learn, and IMHO too difficult to properl= y "invent" with the complete full documentation needed for new pe= ople to learn and use them.=C2=A0 So I hope selpa'i will forgive me if = I don't look at his own efforts at a new "logical language".<= /div>

This is all true, except that the Lojban that Lojbab en= dorses is not a logical language, for all that it might falsely advertise i= tself as such.=C2=A0

The antipathy Lojbab describes exi= sts because Lojban seeks to accrue users and promotes itself by falsely cla= iming to be a logical language. Any logical language is therefore a rival t= o Lojban. And Lojban's false claim to be a logical language, coupled wi= th its comparative fame, is an obstacle to -- a distraction from -- the pro= motion of logical language.



So LLG can adopt such research, if some LLG members want to do so, but unti= l then LLG considers supporting Lojban to be the best way to promote the pu= rposes described in the Bylaws.

Again, patent bullshit.=C2=A0


While I w= ould be only too delighted for the LLG to promote the purposes described in= the Bylaws, that would entail deprecating Lojban in its baselined and curr= ent forms. Given that LLG recruits from the Lojban community rather than fr= om the logical language community, it is obviously and not unreasonably the= case that the large majority of LLG members prioritize the promotion of Lo= jban over the promotion of the purposes described in the Bylaws.=C2=A0

--And.

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-= members


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