Received: from localhost ([::1]:50714 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ebaxR-00057I-RL; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:47:57 -0800 Received: from mail-wr0-f170.google.com ([209.85.128.170]:40438) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ebawv-000564-SJ for llg-members@lojban.org; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:47:26 -0800 Received: by mail-wr0-f170.google.com with SMTP id 100so17034152wrb.7 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:47:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=o5UjL0V2Ayog6h5IKYjgKUUOqiEIWDHCz4He2xjGuJ8=; b=AUA9X0caTSkKq9O43H8lEMLkkA4fT4ZVQ1IVVgmzpvgA8EUXVGjStC87wCNjbINZQ7 WWs4a9cDnvD5s8xUSJPLSVAErwhKA49wAALraQpZFywfbtFcS+4JlXfJPs7p5/w6IBx5 HK7PLNwcyY3PMrAxXRttX+MrZ9UwL1vW82j8IiL0EDiJPpR1x7hXUadJXtvo8+v86rqm PxXDQeKRIa4LNjmdxEu/EDsJD2kXUnp6lpU0CtJ/E+eU4WxY/T0hZnSiV6OsaK0en2U0 p7LxQcV12MSgH37c7O53j5NCRHKJu7iIKs2YZD/FVl3dl7bFdzjJQI08wwQYkqYYTPhK esEg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=o5UjL0V2Ayog6h5IKYjgKUUOqiEIWDHCz4He2xjGuJ8=; b=a8DbeTw8LVHMqxiDmrcYHo5FsWakWWGDb2u/2fgGdgjytMXhn+5ry5WXlW65yUPizv 07kfEI0gcIXJDtCUWpHDienrE80e9BZfyKdIxsxZE0Ksf5/GgtNEFihorG+b3kmIhjpb HTTXmwveY3NpxroCcievvWxav9FZ3ESRW8p6wIbxONWHg76yl4AoSXWR87nxxMYxVCfy ydesmmit9PYd/lMklj5Ux+NkZ7uQHbjczdXQk8ht3t/eRaGFK2wOgBvLE5UMPiS/C2JB X6qRAKCWiD937jU2BvMV6hwuqSn5EqvPBIOxQU2ateNdbU8pG5mtNKgl/LYi4GsLU6Ge SiEA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytfqamz3eqXqbJChJXvT7Q2HoZoQDoL2yjIxGtY/Tk3Beiz7KRrQ Vn5dmTdI0kWdx8shJou+9PJhF7pE1+Ed/6MxZvA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBoubmwMAkk78sihiKwxTJR68w+1a9R0N8aBFa/xcNb7C1qv4zNyTT+PClyhqIRNuh3WJT/0ua4JBB+9Lr50NMcw= X-Received: by 10.223.177.207 with SMTP id r15mr840087wra.32.1516146438885; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:47:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.145.197 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:47:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.145.197 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Jan 2018 15:47:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: And Rosta Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 23:47:17 +0000 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Unfinished Business: BPFK X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5618207175471286127==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============5618207175471286127== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045e7de4ead64b0562ed5980" --f403045e7de4ead64b0562ed5980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On 5 Jan 2018 16:49, "Curtis Franks" wrote: It should be noted that the language need not be capable of expressing every PAS or even every effable expression/concept (these two things are not necessarily equivalent; the set of all PASs is a superset of the set of all effable things when the assumption applies). I take "unlimited" to mean "arbitrarily many" or "infinitely many", but not necessarily "all". There could be gaps in which some things that are effable or PASs cannot be expressed in the language. For an extremely simple example, if we take a loglang according to this definition and then remove all of its words for "cat", then I believe that the result is nonetheless a loglang according to this definition as well, albeit a more restricted and weaker one. Removing some syntactic fuctions/features could produce the same result (for example, by removing "and", or support for dependent clauses, or the ability to generate tanru/'adjective-noun' pairs). I would not even expect/demand expressive closure (here meaning something like the property that the effable combination or extension of expressible PAS(s) remains expressible). The *structural* part of every PAS (i.e. what is an argument of what; which argument places are filled by which arguments) should be expressible unambiguously in the loglang, but it (of course) need not be the case that the semasiological/semantic 'content' of every imaginable predicate can be expressed by vocabulary that already exists in the language. --And. --f403045e7de4ead64b0562ed5980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 5 Jan 2018 16:49, "Curtis Franks" <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com> wrote:
It sho= uld be noted that the language need not be capable of expressing every PAS = or even every effable expression/concept (these two things are not necessar= ily equivalent; the set of all PASs is a superset of the set of all effable= things when the assumption applies). I take "unlimited" to mean = "arbitrarily many" or "infinitely many", but not necess= arily "all". There could be gaps in which some things that are ef= fable or PASs cannot be expressed in the language. For an extremely simple = example, if we take a loglang according to this definition and then remove = all of its words for "cat", then I believe that the result is non= etheless a loglang according to this definition as well, albeit a more rest= ricted and weaker one. Removing some syntactic fuctions/features could prod= uce the same result (for example, by removing "and", or support f= or dependent clauses, or the ability to generate tanru/'adjective-noun&= #39; pairs).

I would not= even expect/demand expressive closure (here meaning something like the pro= perty that the effable combination or extension of expressible PAS(s) remai= ns expressible).

The *structural* part of every PAS (i.e. what= is an argument of what; which argument places are filled by which argument= s) should be expressible unambiguously in the loglang, but it (of course) n= eed not be the case that the semasiological/semantic 'content' of e= very imaginable predicate can be expressed by vocabulary that already exist= s in the language.

--And= .
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