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[67.86.128.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a17sm3472005qth.71.2018.03.11.06.14.55 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 11 Mar 2018 06:14:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Riley Martinez-Lynch Message-Id: <8ADAF633-1DEF-4056-A94D-23BD4E1277A3@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 09:14:52 -0400 References: <58E7EB12-0A74-4057-95BA-1CA5FB6ED8DF@gmail.com> To: llg-members@lojban.org In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Meeting over? X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7794485356572075987==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============7794485356572075987== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C2510D0B-58AC-4BBB-B036-26D70A554136" --Apple-Mail=_C2510D0B-58AC-4BBB-B036-26D70A554136 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Gregorio, You're welcome to share your thoughts here, and the summary that you = have provided of motions and votes is very helpful. Some years ago, when I started to become involved with Lojban on the = Internet, there was a great deal of consternation that the most active = users of the language were not represented in the membership or on the = board of LLG. As a result and over time, a distance had grown between = LLG's policies regarding Lojban and attitudes held toward Lojban by many = active users. Some expressed the fear that this was by design: That they = were not and would not be allowed to meaningfully participate in LLG's = decision-making processes. There was an influx of members and the first election of new board = members in many years. Since that time, the view of LLG as an implacable = other has diminished. But if it's not LLG that is holding back progress, = why can't we have nice things? se cu'u la .pogo. lu ma'a penmi lo bradi .i je du ma'a li'u It seems to me that the suggestion to dissolve LLG, if it's not in fact = a Solomonic provocation, is an attempt to recast LLG as the obstacle. I = would argue that if LLG did not exist, we would still face the essential = problems that it is hard to get people to agree on a relatively stable = definition of a language such as Lojban, and that even where there is = broad agreement, there is a lot of work required to formalize that = consensus. I feel it's worth continuing to aspire towards both the consensus and = its formalization, and as rough a tool as LLG is for those tasks, I = don't see a realistic alternative. Let me clarify, though, that I don't = see LLG's role as to undertake these tasks, but to provide formal = recognition and, where appropriate, material support. The republication of CLL is a case in point. It's fair to say that LLG = was not deeply involved in all of the work that Robin did to prepare the = book for republication. However, LLG had an ultimate role as the = copyright holder, in furnishing funds for the publishing software, and = as the publisher. Do we imagine that if LLG did not exist, Robin might have gotten more = help along the way? If so, I'd like to understand just how that would = have worked. And if not, I'd like to understand how we suppose that = doing away with the LLG (or BPFK, for that matter) would do anything but = compound uncertainty while leaving lethargy unchecked. Don't get me wrong. We should do something. I would argue that the = "something" that needs the most urgent attention is changing the meeting = format, which is not working for anybody. Meetings require quorum, and = the summary that Gregorio has provided seems to indicate that somewhere = along the way, this meeting lost any meaningful sense of that. It's = understandable considering how long the meeting has dragged out. Let's = move to a format where members are either unambiguously present or = absent, and where we can dispatch with the annual business in the space = of hours rather than months. I would like to formally move that we end the 2017 meeting, recognizing = that selpa'i continues to enjoy the confidence of LLG, reaffirming the = current composition of the board, and stating that there is a concern to = distinguish official pronouncements of LLG from unofficial discussions = on LLG-sponsored channels. These are explicitly conservative measures: I = suggest that we table any other business to be considered in the 2018 = meeting, or by the board before that time. The lack of broad = participation by membership makes it doubtful whether some of the more = ambitious proposals considered by this body have adequate support. --Riley > On Mar 10, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Gregorio Guidi wrote: >=20 > Apologies for the intrusion in the conversation, I am not an LLG = member and I followed the meeting as an observer. >=20 > Back in December, solpahi had the following to say: >=20 > Lojban is dead. >=20 > The BPFK is dead, the LLG is dead. These meetings are nothing more = than=20 > something the LLG must do once a year, but everyone dreads the = meetings=20 > and they never achieve anything useful. >=20 > That's why I was going to propose that LLG dissolve itself according = to=20 > Article 11 of the Bylaws = (https://mw.lojban.org/papri/LLG_Bylaws_(2007) = ). > If you think LLG should not dissolve itself, then you should be able = to say why. > Find good reasons why we need the LLG, because if you don't find any = good reasons,=20 > it will continue to be pointless. >=20 > At the time I thought this was quite exaggerated. But having followed = the meeting until now and having seen the depressing ending it reached = (if it is an ending), then I can only come to the conclusion that = solpahi was 100% right - and it pains me to admit it. It really doesn't = speak well for the organization that the voting process cannot be = brought to an end because tallying the votes is too difficult (if it can = help, my unofficial count is reported below). And what about the plans = to discuss "New business"? >=20 > Perhaps, then, it would make sense to go back to the suggestion of = solpahi and put on the table of the meeting the dissolution of the LLG, = as a final point? > Or at least dismantle the BPFK as a committee, and leave Lojban in the = hands of the volunteers that are willing to take care of it. I think it = would make sense as a last attempt to try to reverse - citing again = solpahi - "the utter lethargy that has been inhabiting Lojbanistan". >=20 > Gregorio >=20 >=20 > LLG Goals: logical languages > "The LLG shall adopt, as a principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any = other principal goals), the intention of exploration and promotion of = logical language(s) in general, subject to the following definitional = framework and description: Presupposing that everything effable (i.e. = linguistically expressible) can be represented as a predicate-argument = structure (PAS), a logical language (in the technical sense, i.e. = loglang) is one that (syntactically-)unambiguously bidirectionally = encodes an unlimited number of PASs. (Also known by some as the = 'monoparsing' property. The relevant bidirectionality is conversion both = from PAS to phonological form and from phonological form to PAS.)" >=20 > Curtis Franks: Aye > Thomas Porter: Aye > Gleki: Nay >=20 > LLG Goals: Lojban > "A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other principal goals) = is promotion of Lojban (regardless of its status as a logical language) = as defined by documents endorsed by the LLG." >=20 > Curtis Franks: Aye > Thomas Porter: Nay > Gleki: Aye >=20 > LLG Goals: Lojban derivative > "A principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other principal goals) = is creation of a Lojban derivative that is a logical language." >=20 > Thomas Porter: Aye > Gleki: Nay >=20 > Unofficial Social Media Presences > "It is moved that the LLG adopt an official policy that the LLG or = some body constituted by it for such purpose search for and monitor = social media or blog platforms, accounts, pages, profiles, groups, = communities, bots, etc. (hereafter called "entities") which in any way = whatsoever relate to, promote, or use Lojban or other LLG-adopted = logical languages and which are not clearly human, personal, = non-promoting, or unofficial - and that such a body requests such = entities to prominently display a disclaimer stating that they are = unofficial and not endorsed by the LLG." >=20 > Adam Lopresto: Nay > Curtis Franks: Nay > Pierre Abbat: Nay > selpa'i: Nay > guskant: Nay > Alex Burka: Nay > Gleki: Nay > Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay >=20 > Unofficial Disclaimer > "All non-official pages or content on *.lojban.org = must contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that = the website is owned and managed by voluntary people, and that the = marked contents are not necessarily harmonized with the official design = of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone perfectly comply with, official = specifications of the same." >=20 > Adam Lopresto: Nay > guskant: Aye > Gleki: Aye > Curtis Franks: Aye > Alex Burka: Aye > Pierre Abbat: Aye > karis: Aye > Thomas Porter: Aye > Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay >=20 > Constitution of a an Enforcing Body > See = http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/private/llg-members/2018-January/001810.htm= l = > = http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/private/llg-members/2018-January/001817.htm= l = >=20 > Adam Lopresto: Nay > Curtis Franks: Aye > Thomas Porter: Aye > Alex Burka: Nay > Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay >=20 > Election of BPFK Chair > selpa'i for BPFK Chair. >=20 > Adam Lopresto: Aye > Ilmen: Aye > Alex Burka: Aye > Riley Martinez-Lynch: Aye > xorxes: Aye > Curtis Franks: Aye > guskant: Aye > Gleki: Aye > Pierre Abbat: Aye > karis: Aye --Apple-Mail=_C2510D0B-58AC-4BBB-B036-26D70A554136 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Gregorio,

You're welcome to share your thoughts = here, and the summary that you have provided of motions and votes is = very helpful.

Some years ago, when I started to become involved with Lojban = on the Internet, there was a great deal of consternation that the most = active users of the language were not represented in the membership or = on the board of LLG. As a result and over time, a distance had grown = between LLG's policies regarding Lojban and attitudes held toward Lojban = by many active users. Some expressed the fear that this was by design: = That they were not and would not be allowed to meaningfully participate = in LLG's decision-making processes.

There was an influx of members and the = first election of new board members in many years. Since that time, the = view of LLG as an implacable other has diminished. But if it's not LLG = that is holding back progress, why can't we have nice things?

se cu'u = la .pogo. lu ma'a penmi lo bradi .i je du ma'a li'u

It seems to me that the = suggestion to dissolve LLG, if it's not in fact a Solomonic provocation, = is an attempt to recast LLG as the obstacle. I would argue that if LLG = did not exist, we would still face the essential problems that it is = hard to get people to agree on a relatively stable definition of a = language such as Lojban, and that even where there is broad agreement, = there is a lot of work required to formalize that consensus.

I feel it's worth = continuing to aspire towards both the consensus and its formalization, = and as rough a tool as LLG is for those tasks, I don't see a realistic = alternative. Let me clarify, though, that I don't see LLG's role as to = undertake these tasks, but to provide formal recognition and, where = appropriate, material support.

The republication of CLL is a case in = point. It's fair to say that LLG was not deeply involved in all of the = work that Robin did to prepare the book for republication. However, LLG = had an ultimate role as the copyright holder, in furnishing funds for = the publishing software, and as the publisher.

Do we imagine that if LLG did not = exist, Robin might have gotten more help along the way? If so, I'd like = to understand just how that would have worked. And if not, I'd like to = understand how we suppose that doing away with the LLG (or BPFK, for = that matter) would do anything but compound uncertainty while leaving = lethargy unchecked.

Don't get me wrong. We should do something. I would argue = that the "something" that needs the most urgent attention is changing = the meeting format, which is not working for anybody. Meetings require = quorum, and the summary that Gregorio has provided seems to indicate = that somewhere along the way, this meeting lost any meaningful sense of = that. It's understandable considering how long the meeting has dragged = out. Let's move to a format where members are either unambiguously = present or absent, and where we can dispatch with the annual business in = the space of hours rather than months.

I would like to formally move that we = end the 2017 meeting, recognizing that selpa'i continues to enjoy the = confidence of LLG, reaffirming the current composition of the board, and = stating that there is a concern to distinguish official pronouncements = of LLG from unofficial discussions on LLG-sponsored channels. These are = explicitly conservative measures: I suggest that we table any other = business to be considered in the 2018 meeting, or by the board before = that time. The lack of broad participation by membership makes it = doubtful whether some of the more ambitious proposals considered by this = body have adequate support.

--Riley


On Mar 10, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Gregorio Guidi = <greg_g@posteo.net> wrote:

=20 =20
Apologies for the intrusion in the conversation, I am not an LLG member and I followed the meeting as an observer.

Back in December, solpahi had the following to say:

Lojban is dead.

The BPFK is dead, the LLG is dead. These meetings are nothing more than=20=

something the LLG must do once a year, but everyone dreads the meetings=20=

and they never achieve anything useful.

That's why I was going to propose that LLG dissolve itself according to=20=

Article 11 of the Bylaws (https://mw.lojban.org/papri/LLG_Bylaws_(2007)).
If you think LLG should not dissolve itself, then you should be able to =
say why.
Find good reasons why we need the LLG, because if you don't find any =
good reasons,=20
it will continue to be pointless.

At the time I thought this was quite exaggerated. But having followed the meeting until now and having seen the depressing ending it reached (if it is an ending), then I can only come to the conclusion that solpahi was 100% right - and it pains me to admit it. It really doesn't speak well for the organization that the voting process cannot be brought to an end because tallying the votes is too difficult (if it can help, my unofficial count is reported below). And what about the plans to discuss "New business"?

Perhaps, then, it would make sense to go back to the suggestion of solpahi and put on the table of the meeting the dissolution of the LLG, as a final point?
Or at least dismantle the BPFK as a committee, and leave Lojban in the hands of the volunteers that are willing to take care of it. I think it would make sense as a last attempt to try to reverse - citing again solpahi - "the utter lethargy that has been inhabiting Lojbanistan".

Gregorio


LLG Goals: logical languages
"The LLG shall adopt, = as a principal goal of the LLG (coequal with any other principal goals), the intention of exploration and promotion of logical language(s) in general, subject to the following definitional framework and description: Presupposing that everything effable (i.e. linguistically expressible) can be represented as a predicate-argument structure (PAS), a logical language (in the technical sense, i.e. loglang) is one that (syntactically-)unambiguously bidirectionally encodes an unlimited number of PASs. (Also known by some as the 'monoparsing' property. The relevant bidirectionality is conversion both from PAS to phonological form and from phonological form to PAS.)"

Curtis Franks: Aye
Thomas Porter: Aye
Gleki: Nay

LLG Goals: Lojban
"A principal goal of = the LLG (coequal with any other principal goals) is promotion of Lojban (regardless of its status as a logical language) as defined by documents endorsed by the LLG."

Curtis Franks: Aye
Thomas Porter: Nay
Gleki: Aye

LLG Goals: Lojban derivative
"A principal goal of = the LLG (coequal with any other principal goals) is creation of a Lojban derivative that is a logical language."

Thomas Porter: Aye
Gleki: Nay

Unofficial Social Media Presences
"It is moved that the = LLG adopt an official policy that the LLG or some body constituted by it for such purpose search for and monitor social media or blog platforms, accounts, pages, profiles, groups, communities, bots, etc. (hereafter called "entities") which in any way whatsoever relate to, promote, or use Lojban or other LLG-adopted logical languages and which are not clearly human, personal, non-promoting, or unofficial - and that such a body requests such entities to prominently display a disclaimer stating that they are unofficial and not endorsed by the = LLG."

Adam Lopresto: Nay
Curtis Franks: Nay
Pierre Abbat: Nay
selpa'i: Nay
guskant: Nay
Alex Burka: Nay
Gleki: Nay
Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay

Unofficial Disclaimer
= "All non-official = pages or content on *.lojban.org must contain a disclaimer stating, at least, that the website is owned and managed by voluntary people, and that the marked contents are not necessarily harmonized with the official design of Lojban and may not reflect, let alone perfectly comply with, official specifications of the = same."

Adam Lopresto: Nay
guskant: Aye
Gleki: Aye
Curtis Franks: Aye
Alex Burka: Aye
Pierre Abbat: Aye
karis: Aye
Thomas Porter: Aye
Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay

Constitution of a an Enforcing Body
See http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/private/llg-members/2018-January= /001810.html
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/private/llg-members/2018-January= /001817.html

Adam Lopresto: Nay
Curtis Franks: Aye
Thomas Porter: Aye
Alex Burka: Nay
Riley Martinez-Lynch: Nay

Election of BPFK Chair
selpa'i for BPFK Chair.

Adam Lopresto: Aye
Ilmen: Aye
Alex Burka: Aye
Riley Martinez-Lynch: Aye
xorxes: Aye
Curtis Franks: Aye
guskant: Aye
Gleki: Aye
Pierre Abbat: Aye
karis: Aye

= --Apple-Mail=_C2510D0B-58AC-4BBB-B036-26D70A554136-- --===============7794485356572075987== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --===============7794485356572075987==--