Received: from localhost ([::1]:36526 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ewHZE-00087I-PK; Wed, 14 Mar 2018 18:20:28 -0700 Received: from mail-ua0-f170.google.com ([209.85.217.170]:34623) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ewHYi-00085N-K1 for llg-members@lojban.org; Wed, 14 Mar 2018 18:19:58 -0700 Received: by mail-ua0-f170.google.com with SMTP id m43so3356289uah.1 for ; Wed, 14 Mar 2018 18:19:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=IPzrt3z0hshcs/Ejd1Hirg1aTUg9IhFCQYXPMkvI9ys=; b=YqwaVMYQpK/f6YY2szcJvIP63qpbNWSI0qkTex1naJrhyAinPEtdgUBfm+TtXt1xqT snzj13kEKtXteS94lFSbsyylzaSsGcMaRdUxG+19gDprv/qksQf98oTBKZlTcn9Ug/zy d2+VxGSDJCzDMJdAEHEKon3jGSdiKW+jKdvHDxVwTNDRniga772VRh2AFd0rE50Pt1XD s8jgfTxTXjf8v/BuParUQA72mTStXwfTzbOUUwbjeh+zJAjBTvfCPldVlTTvwT51zDOZ qYkQA9LCkp7uv5jZzsCMFDwV+qliC2V32CyuCKZmZS9MmGjGG5sobU46QJ4NnVU8A27u a1/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=IPzrt3z0hshcs/Ejd1Hirg1aTUg9IhFCQYXPMkvI9ys=; b=JXv6fDCJkjHdG3NTc2KSuCNdvB2rNUfS4S5YYp1S30lKuR3ZdKG/pxhhUKNBZiKmNT 70E9ekDCa/9k3HI0XEMvOC46OKYTYwbbTmEPTCvkfX1GwzD7HM/WIpXF4vog+Ncwfqsq 7SHNDhPYwxq8+P09So3/QWTjQaNh4l6jhQJmM0UtnW4dTvnQXpi+JeKEpyUyL+B9/rRT 3zYKTcqMyluH2h6j19qqHWab6PQbras5aZR6SL7hBkCugYEXsVFGreKhQie00EILfsbY P9RXrepaXejlYW5MGNW4aSdTzS77gl73OtrEgbLMRqqMzzuRqo7AwCo04z64SOQZke85 XWLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7EaowsVRjQ5KnBphZvE1SXGKOn1pe4MbwHeYyB/heSNh9tlYctt jsmEksvfYzOAGfx0yUAocXGLUmwvHY/4Q4R6e1I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvl5tbiWQ4honfFXEWLOYF222X+rwABHArZqRCLURkoh0oC86OOwjSYSGHiJNK5aHISONNAum0Qmb3EOPYWrII= X-Received: by 10.176.73.102 with SMTP id a35mr4957095uad.81.1521076789445; Wed, 14 Mar 2018 18:19:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.176.18.80 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Mar 2018 18:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.176.18.80 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Mar 2018 18:19:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <58E7EB12-0A74-4057-95BA-1CA5FB6ED8DF@gmail.com> From: Creative Care Services Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 21:19:48 -0400 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Meeting over? X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9183531800228507598==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============9183531800228507598== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114531dcb6094b0567694934" --001a114531dcb6094b0567694934 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mar 10, 2018 20:25, "Gregorio Guidi" wrote: Apologies for the intrusion in the conversation, I am not an LLG member and I followed the meeting as an observer. Please participate as much as you want. It is not an intrusion in any way for you to join in. Back in December, solpahi had the following to say: *Lojban is dead. The BPFK is dead, the LLG is dead. These meetings are nothing more than something the LLG must do once a year, but everyone dreads the meetings and they never achieve anything useful. That's why I was going to propose that LLG dissolve itself according to Article 11 of the Bylaws (**https://mw.lojban.org/papri/LLG_Bylaws_(2007)* *). If you think LLG should not dissolve itself, then you should be able to say why. Find good reasons why we need the LLG, because if you don't find any good reasons, it will continue to be pointless.* At the time I thought this was quite exaggerated. But having followed the meeting until now and having seen the depressing ending it reached (if it is an ending), then I can only come to the conclusion that solpahi was 100% right - and it pains me to admit it. It really doesn't speak well for the organization that the voting process cannot be brought to an end because tallying the votes is too difficult (if it can help, my unofficial count is reported below). And what about the plans to discuss "New business"? Your collection of vote results is of great help and I request that the Secretary include them as you provided unless supplemented by any emails that turn up in other people's records of this meeting. Perhaps, then, it would make sense to go back to the suggestion of solpahi and put on the table of the meeting the dissolution of the LLG, as a final point? Or at least dismantle the BPFK as a committee, and leave Lojban in the hands of the volunteers that are willing to take care of it. I think it would make sense as a last attempt to try to reverse - citing again solpahi - "the utter lethargy that has been inhabiting Lojbanistan". Gregorio As for the question of whether the LLG is dead, I would not be involved to this degree if I did not believe the group currently has value. I see the LLG as important historically, as a structural part of lojbanbanistan, and as an important problem solving element of the community. .karis. --001a114531dcb6094b0567694934 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mar 10, 2018 20:25, "Gregorio Guidi" <greg_g@posteo.net> wrote= :
=20 =20 =20
Apologies for the intrusion in the conversation, I am not an LLG member and I followed the meeting as an observer.

Please p= articipate as much as you want. It is not an intrusion in any way for you t= o join in.=C2=A0


=
Back in December, solpahi had the following to say:

Lojban is dead.

The BPFK is dead, the LLG is dead. These meetings are nothing more than=20
something the LLG must do once a year, but everyone dreads the meetings=20
and they never achieve anything useful.

That's why I was going to propose that LLG dissolve itself according to=
=20
Article 11 of the Bylaws (https://mw.lojban.org/papri/LLG_Byl=
aws_(2007)).
If you think LLG should not dissolve itself, then you should be able to say=
 why.
Find good reasons why we need the LLG, because if you don't find any go=
od reasons,=20
it will continue to be pointless.

At the time I thought this was quite exaggerated. But having followed the meeting until now and having seen the depressing ending it reached (if it is an ending), then I can only come to the conclusion that solpahi was 100% right - and it pains me to admit it. It really doesn't speak well for the organization that the voting process cannot be brought to an end because tallying the votes is too difficult (if it can help, my unofficial count is reported below). And what about the plans to discuss "New business"?

Your collection of vote results is of great help and I = request that the Secretary include them as you provided unless supplemented= by any emails that turn up in other people's records of this meeting.= =C2=A0


Perhaps, then, it would make sense to go back to the suggestion of solpahi and put on the table of the meeting the dissolution of the LLG, as a final point?
Or at least dismantle the BPFK as a committee, and leave Lojban in the hands of the volunteers that are willing to take care of it. I think it would make sense as a last attempt to try to reverse - citing again solpahi - "the utter lethargy that has been inhabiting Lojbanistan".

Gregorio

As for the question of whether the LLG is dead, I would= not be involved to this degree if I did not believe the group currently ha= s value. I see the LLG as important historically, as a structural part of l= ojbanbanistan, and as an important problem solving element of the community= .

.karis.=C2=A0

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