Received: from localhost ([::1]:39140 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ey9PF-0003uw-0k; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 22:01:53 -0700 Received: from mail-yb0-f172.google.com ([209.85.213.172]:41907) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ey9Oi-0003tA-GM for llg-members@lojban.org; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 22:01:21 -0700 Received: by mail-yb0-f172.google.com with SMTP id b6-v6so117402ybn.8 for ; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 22:01:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=T2J++8v6luNTy/T76xZGIzqDbEgYtovUYSE04AGmVes=; b=OyReZ95+b2T+A+dN0pV3h9I07fsxRm+iNbn3+SEN/ApFLYQl3TRreuebaLB8UO1fbq K52UthsgsCPkfgPPJbYDUyXazn1mQ7jLCKa9ZenqKoKwL5Jg4U70gDrBQ/KAkZmUqIwS uGeKiixYkLfdYuWJBN3nknbgumm4fOOcxN2OYSam/ekLt8349cibykNByfbAMcQVO/WH z2P/lBnk+UoCyCxv3BrLFZnK1l88n4e3SJWjR7y4rq5WwQlSSJujO//Zy8twd5N1JdfV r5KwE4i9Gy6l+FC+x3WK74OTK1DGBNdN5ae2DJQ+Yy0a5oeJ1g9ICGa24xi2TBygd/45 6GOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=T2J++8v6luNTy/T76xZGIzqDbEgYtovUYSE04AGmVes=; b=A8NP+vjk3C5ln5egcTpk68OE+Fucx9ZTFMmZxOp93P7exeB1SSPSh5rWs0Ofw92BOK SfZ0wEfdIVaewwMCXBjOaSLSMBobaBnPMptXKa2hGn7jg5ImxSig0iAbN4yTOYrP44bi zu61itFi/skKZ3UMKHB81jCJgVwZBjPMLBSGmSzRVlW4YwiN+eQJYAEuAplT/BxT0YHl G9jJPI91KDQ2/oVkYOGSlpI8iWxkT7zxJV3R1XaKkcLNWa/keARF9XEVEKF4hLMyLj1v eKYgC5aobuY4JTfsZmU468rYtZBzLzdZDXQiDuMjBDdyPJthSoionLSVW6enfnTlROEr wajQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7FmiMQ0+vLMVI44hKuqXOUBEDnH1T0FUgbKZZxJMbcUEiX5flvw keoEX2xIdaEaYZBSfnXSl2BdnGQU4nnmLPOrVVg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtcuFHQSqX47Kcj7oToeG36tMonqUCYrnaV8ehBx9wHts1kqWsShSESGaCwJ5OKDg5atj7md3HbL2nnynQ7yns= X-Received: by 2002:a25:3a42:: with SMTP id h63-v6mr8479177yba.417.1521522073389; Mon, 19 Mar 2018 22:01:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <911780df-0d1e-0137-8efd-83a3e6a80e47@selpahi.de> <784F78DE-87B9-4F67-AE4E-3BAF4D87F541@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <784F78DE-87B9-4F67-AE4E-3BAF4D87F541@gmail.com> From: Curtis Franks Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 05:01:03 +0000 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Vote to Adjourn, cast your ballot here X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9086175221191620306==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============9086175221191620306== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b3d0b80567d0f637" --000000000000b3d0b80567d0f637 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I basically agree with Riley. Additionally, it felt like this meeting sorta fell apart at the end (which was all of our faults, but perhaps especially mine). I opine that it would be better to step back, regroup, organize a plan, and come at it anew in a strategic and perhaps better-facilitated manner. We just have to try again. I would like Guskant to soon raise the new business discussion somewhere. I am curious as to what they are and think that the discussion could help to make the next meeting more effective (and to run smoother). I personally am sorry for clogging up this meeting. Additionally, I am sad to see such important community members disengage due to a lack of confidence. I hope that we can win them back over in time. ~~~ Curtis On Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 06:55 Riley Martinez-Lynch wrote: > I raised adjournment and I favor it. Not because I think that we > accomplished what we set out to do in the 2017 meeting, but because I thi= nk > it is far too late to do the business of 2017. The arbitrary boundaries o= f > calendar years are annoying, but as a real-world business entity, this bo= dy > has to work within them. > > I'm glad that selpa'i and guskant were able to join LLG for a time: Their > work, both in the theory of lojban and in making use of it, continue to > inspire me and fill me with wonder. .i'o sai > > It's my hope that this body can learn to do more to encourage and show > appreciation to those who are using lojban. Perhaps we can discuss that i= n > the 2018 meeting. > > I'm glad that the BPFK retains a chair, as I think it has the potential t= o > play a valuable role in bringing the attention of this body to what happe= ns > with lojban as it is used. As new description of lojban are formulated, > there are procedures in place for recognizing and promulgating them. That= 's > a small comfort, I'm sure, to those who task themselves with the work of > compiling such descriptions, but it has the potential to be consequential= . > > In the board meeting next month, I will raise the issue of distinguishing > the official voice of LLG from that of the community-run internet presenc= es > that this organization provides. I expect we will return to this subject > when the 2018 members' meeting convenes, and I will report any progress > that the board makes on the issue. > > --Riley > > > > On Mar 18, 2018, at 12:06 PM, selpahi wrote: > > > > On 18.03.2018 16:31, guskant wrote: > >> As Selpahi's termination of his LLG-membership was accepted by the > >> president, I have one question and one declaration. > >> 1. Question > >> We had a voting result of ten "aye" for Selpahi to be the chair of > >> BPFK. Is it still valid, and how will it be applied? > > > > Membership is not required for the position of chair of BPFK: > > > > "At no time will membership in LLG or BPFK be considered a requirement > for the position of chair of BPFK." > > > > (https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Reauthorization) > > > > Therefore, I still have the position of chair of BPFK. > > > > Whether that matters is another question. The BPFK membership is > similarly inactive. My attempt to improve and define its procedures only > got the one response from guskant, while every other member remained > silent. I interpret that silence as disinterest in the matter. If The > majority of the BPFK is disinterested in their own committee, then > something is wrong. > > > >> My abstention from voting to adjourn posted on 2018-03-15 was based on > >> the same despair that Selpahi wrote about more expressively than I can > >> do. Because I don't have prestige like Selpahi, I cannot fight alone > >> against the decay of Lojban without his support. > > > > There are other ways to keep Lojban alive than LLG or BPFK work. It may > just be time to accept that no centralized LLG-approved body is going to > get done the things you mentioned, for various reasons. However, this doe= s > not have to be a bad thing per se. For example, the work you have done wi= th > zantufa is outstanding, and I don't think anyone would deny that only > because it isn't a project backed by the LLG. In fact, all the different > projects that have enriched the culture of Lojban were efforts by > individuals. It is those individuals that I look up to, not the LLG or th= e > BPFK. So I want to encourage people to follow their individual visions, a= nd > maybe some of them can even motivate others to follow suit. > > > > ~~~mi'e la selpa'i > > > > --- > > Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Llg-members mailing list > > Llg-members@lojban.org > > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > --000000000000b3d0b80567d0f637 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I basically agree with Riley. Additionally, it felt = like this meeting sorta fell apart at the end (which was all of our faults,= but perhaps especially mine). I opine that it would be better to step back= , regroup, organize a plan, and come at it anew in a strategic and perhaps = better-facilitated manner. We just have to try again.

I would like Guskant to soon raise the new bu= siness discussion somewhere. I am curious as to what they are and think tha= t the discussion could help to make the next meeting more effective (and to= run smoother).

I person= ally am sorry for clogging up this meeting. Additionally, I am sad to see s= uch important community members disengage due to a lack of confidence. I ho= pe that we can win them back over in time.

~~~ Curtis

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018, 06:55 Riley Martinez-Lynch <shunpiker@gmail.com> wrote:
<= /div>
I raised adjournment and I favor it. No= t because I think that we accomplished what we set out to do in the 2017 me= eting, but because I think it is far too late to do the business of 2017. T= he arbitrary boundaries of calendar years are annoying, but as a real-world= business entity, this body has to work within them.

I'm glad that selpa'i and guskant were able to join LLG for a time:= Their work, both in the theory of lojban and in making use of it, continue= to inspire me and fill me with wonder. .i'o sai

It's my hope that this body can learn to do more to encourage and show = appreciation to those who are using lojban. Perhaps we can discuss that in = the 2018 meeting.

I'm glad that the BPFK retains a chair, as I think it has the potential= to play a valuable role in bringing the attention of this body to what hap= pens with lojban as it is used. As new description of lojban are formulated= , there are procedures in place for recognizing and promulgating them. That= 's a small comfort, I'm sure, to those who task themselves with the= work of compiling such descriptions, but it has the potential to be conseq= uential.

In the board meeting next month, I will raise the issue of distinguishing t= he official voice of LLG from that of the community-run internet presences = that this organization provides. I expect we will return to this subject wh= en the 2018 members' meeting convenes, and I will report any progress t= hat the board makes on the issue.

--Riley


> On Mar 18, 2018, at 12:06 PM, selpahi <selpahi@selpahi.de> w= rote:
>
> On 18.03.2018 16:31, guskant wrote:
>> As Selpahi's termination of his LLG-membership was accepted by= the
>> president, I have one question and one declaration.
>> 1. Question
>> We had a voting result of ten "aye" for Selpahi to be th= e chair of
>> BPFK. Is it still valid, and how will it be applied?
>
> Membership is not required for the position of chair of BPFK:
>
> "At no time will membership in LLG or BPFK be considered a requir= ement for the position of chair of BPFK."
>
> (https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Re= authorization)
>
> Therefore, I still have the position of chair of BPFK.
>
> Whether that matters is another question. The BPFK membership is simil= arly inactive. My attempt to improve and define its procedures only got the= one response from guskant, while every other member remained silent. I int= erpret that silence as disinterest in the matter. If The majority of the BP= FK is disinterested in their own committee, then something is wrong.
>
>> My abstention from voting to adjourn posted on 2018-03-15 was base= d on
>> the same despair that Selpahi wrote about more expressively than I= can
>> do. Because I don't have prestige like Selpahi, I cannot fight= alone
>> against the decay of Lojban without his support.
>
> There are other ways to keep Lojban alive than LLG or BPFK work. It ma= y just be time to accept that no centralized LLG-approved body is going to = get done the things you mentioned, for various reasons. However, this does = not have to be a bad thing per se. For example, the work you have done with= zantufa is outstanding, and I don't think anyone would deny that only = because it isn't a project backed by the LLG. In fact, all the differen= t projects that have enriched the culture of Lojban were efforts by individ= uals. It is those individuals that I look up to, not the LLG or the BPFK. S= o I want to encourage people to follow their individual visions, and maybe = some of them can even motivate others to follow suit.
>
> ~~~mi'e la selpa'i
>
> ---
> Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft= .
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Llg-members mailing list
> Llg-members@lojban.org
> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/li= stinfo/llg-members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinf= o/llg-members
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