Received: from localhost ([::1]:49997 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YgoCt-0002J6-7x; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:43:51 -0700 Received: from mail-wi0-f179.google.com ([209.85.212.179]:33288) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YgoCl-0002Id-LV for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:43:48 -0700 Received: by wiax7 with SMTP id x7so28649608wia.0 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:43:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=sdznH4oZXeu9nU4GH8zB0NJZJ84A4Pl/hYDulTuyeLc=; b=pbH64ow0EsZN7iD7daTEI+ehYY9Tb0m7i9lq7aPC/FXo8pr5yPiTKpP+QzaBxMyjMk eeUcAYlRamOv0EDRznZ4kkpWUGNv455cxY99a5nk/3nRSdSMjrvbw/8sX6jpIo9HwLeq cnSFl08WUazCDJsZZBWzIVdsLf90P+sKFCrAFX5l7LOS6eX92YIp8qfxfmWrc/9EYT6o QB8it/m/HGt8jNZgEK0Tv4kpkY0qVxGFyDzmSzg7qSVSUvfVdUnIDburjiDWhtkReQy7 wF6BVsyiW73dtj552YWfREuMffWhdTtco1Db4Kdt+QuRF33CPmRqI+SUsxpl6E6xj5k9 Lh6g== X-Received: by 10.180.81.200 with SMTP id c8mr3449271wiy.49.1428731016914; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:43:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.240.197 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:43:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55283D76.2050606@lojban.org> References: <55283D76.2050606@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 08:43:16 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.0 X-Spam_score_int: -9 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Detailed Proposal of a Project Manager X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4183742028058628335==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============4183742028058628335== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043bdb08be2b1c05136c5c29 --f46d043bdb08be2b1c05136c5c29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-04-11 0:15 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier : > On 4/10/2015 1:47 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > >> Who can take the responsibility to spend LLG's money for given projects? >> > > The Board of Directors has that authority, as does the membership at > large. The President and Secretary/Treasurer have signature access to the > bank account, and usually the VP and myself as the local officer, but we > won't know who all these people will be until the new Board meets after the > annual meeting ends (and then we have to do the paperwork to get the new > officers access to the bank account). > > Maybe la .lojbab. can. >> > > I can pay bills as directed, or as implied to be authorized under prior > decisions. > > Anyway, we indeed don't know what problems Lojban and Lojbanistan has so >> such a position may be important at least during a limited time. In a >> few months we can decide if it benefited the language and the community. >> > > That is in fact the problem with the Project Manager approach as I see > it. The projects to be managed are generally amorphous, and seldom have > more than one person actually working on them at any one time, so there is > nothing to "manage". Very seldom have we had a project attract multiple > volunteers who actually get around to doing something, and indeed most of > the time, even the initial volunteer forgets that they did so, until asked > to report on progress a year later. > > The intermittent postings by Pierre on trying to set up a Logfest are the > height of activity, and yet no one is making enough of a commitment to > actually make any decisions, not that it is clear who would make any > decisions, should they be needed, since no one made any motions on the > subject in this meeting, and the Board is inactive. > Okay, so you think that only IRL activity counts. > > The same is true for the NooLearning support effort. We have no > leadership, and no volunteers. If you mean their online tool I don't know what kind of leadership is needed. A few days ago they sent a message that the tool would be ready in a few weeks for testing by contributors. And at least I am going to test and then contribute. Someone in the community needs to push the matter for something to > happen, and I find it almost impossible these days to multitrack Lojban > efforts while trying to run the meeting. > > Compare to other possible proposals: >> 1. Use money to advertise Lojban. I'd be completely against it since >> there isn't much to advertise (most advertisable things like books need >> first to be updated or finalized). >> > > This is agreed. We need a published grammar, textbook and dictionary > before the language is seriously marketable other than current > word-of-mouth. > > Well, still I think that spending money on Jbovlaste 2.0 might be >> desirable. Although... again we don't have precise specifications of >> what needs to be implemented in it. So yes, a project manager position >> might be fine. >> > > Do we have workers who would need management, and would stick around long > enough to get something done? > Last time I only saw Riley who did some preliminary preparations of the next version of Jbovlaste. *Riley, I'm asking you* to report on all possible problems with your python version of Jbovlaste/Vlasisku including financial ones and the problem of the free time. ke'u, please say a word about that because at least I see it as an important project that I'm not able to contribute to at all (and no similar software exists outside Lojbanistan). > A project manager who had the ability to get people to commit and follow > through on their volunteer efforts would be worthwhile, but I think such a > person would have to be a member of the community to make this possible. > While Matt Arnold (who resigned earlier in the meeting) and I have had more > than our share of disagreements, he and Robin Powell are the only ones I > have seen able to get others to do things to help them out in a coordinated > manner (you and selpa'i may have also done so, but I don't see the results > so as to know for sure) > Our results are probably either not immediately visible (practicing spoken Lojban) or available via the internet only. > 2015-04-08 23:42 GMT+03:00 Ali Sajid Imami > >: >> >> I don't have the details on how much we make. I would like to see >> those numbers and then we can come to an agreeable amount that can >> be paid. I will also do a bit more digging into the time >> calculations. I may have mixed up my limiters. My financial side is >> a bit... weak. >> > > I would guess that LLG gets around US$2000 per year in income, BUT this > will likely drop off significantly when CLL 2nd edition comes out, and > there probably aren't more than around 100 copies of the 1st edition book > unsold. Lightning Source books, as I recall, are substantially cheaper > than our 1st edition books, and we make corresponding much less on sales. > I doubt that we will have $1000/yr income from sales, though we might be > able to get more in donations. > > We have generally allocated $500-$1000 for expenses for LogFests. > > The bank account has more than $10K in it accumulated, that could allow us > to make one-time expenditures than are more significant. However, real > book publication (as opposed to POD publication with Lightning Source or > other firm) would chew that up instantly. The original CLL publication was > around $17K for a 1500 copy print run, of which only around 1250 ended up > salable. > > lojbab > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > --f46d043bdb08be2b1c05136c5c29 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-04-11 0:15 GMT+03:00 Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>:
On 4/10/2015 1:47= PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
Who can take the responsibility to spend LLG's money for given projects= ?

 The Board of Directors has that authority, as does the membership at large.= =C2=A0 The President and Secretary/Treasurer have signature access to the b= ank account, and usually the VP and myself as the local officer, but we won= 't know who all these people will be until the new Board meets after th= e annual meeting ends (and then we have to do the paperwork to get the new = officers access to the bank account).

Maybe la .lojbab. can.

I can pay bills as directed, or as implied to be authorized under prior dec= isions.

Anyway, we indeed don't know what problems Lojban and Lojbanistan has s= o
such a position may be important at least during a limited time. In a
few months we can decide if it benefited the language and the community.

That is in fact the problem with the Project Manager approach as I see it.= =C2=A0 The projects to be managed are generally amorphous, and seldom have = more than one person actually working on them at any one time, so there is = nothing to "manage".=C2=A0 Very seldom have we had a project attr= act multiple volunteers who actually get around to doing something, and ind= eed most of the time, even the initial volunteer forgets that they did so, = until asked to report on progress a year later.

The intermittent postings by Pierre on trying to set up a Logfest are the h= eight of activity, and yet no one is making enough of a commitment to actua= lly make any decisions, not that it is clear who would make any decisions, = should they be needed, since no one made any motions on the subject in this= meeting, and the Board is inactive.

Ok= ay, so you think that only IRL activity counts.
=C2=A0

The same is true for the NooLearning support effort.=C2=A0 We have no leade= rship, and no volunteers.

If you mean their online too= l I don't know what kind of leadership is needed. A few days ago they s= ent a message that the tool would be ready in a few weeks for testing by co= ntributors. And at least I am going to test and then contribute.

=C2=A0 Someone in the community needs= to push the matter for something to happen, and I find it almost impossibl= e these days to multitrack Lojban efforts while trying to run the meeting.<= span class=3D"">

Compare to other possible proposals:
1. Use money to advertise Lojban. I'd be completely against it since there isn't much to advertise (most advertisable things like books need=
first to be updated or finalized).

This is agreed.=C2=A0 We need a published grammar, textbook and dictionary = before the language is seriously marketable other than current word-of-mout= h.

Well, still I think that spending money on Jbovlaste 2.0 might be
desirable. Although... again we don't have precise specifications of what needs to be implemented in it. So yes, a project manager position
might be fine.

 Do we have workers who would need management, and would stick around long e= nough to get something done?

Last time I only saw = Riley who did some preliminary preparations of the next version of Jbovlast= e.

Riley, I'm asking you to report on all possible proble= ms with your python version of Jbovlaste/Vlasisku including financial ones = and the problem of the free time.

ke'u, please say a word about = that because at least I see it as an important project that I'm not abl= e to contribute to at all (and no similar software exists outside Lojbanist= an).


A project manager who had the ability to get people to commit and follow th= rough on their volunteer efforts would be worthwhile, but I think such a pe= rson would have to be a member of the community to make this possible.=C2= =A0 While Matt Arnold (who resigned earlier in the meeting) and I have had = more than our share of disagreements, he and Robin Powell are the only ones= I have seen able to get others to do things to help them out in a coordina= ted manner (you and selpa'i may have also done so, but I don't see = the results so as to know for sure)

Our results ar= e probably either not immediately visible (practicing spoken Lojban) or ava= ilable via the internet only.


2015-04-08 23:42 GMT+03:00 Ali Sajid Imami <ali.sajid.imami@gmail.com
<mailto:a= li.sajid.imami@gmail.com>>:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don't have the details on how much we make. I would lik= e to see
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 those numbers and then we can come to an agreeable amount tha= t can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be paid. I will also do a bit more digging into the time
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 calculations. I may have mixed up my limiters. My financial s= ide is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a bit... weak.

I would guess that LLG gets around US$2000 per year in income, BUT this wil= l likely drop off significantly when CLL 2nd edition comes out, and there p= robably aren't more than around 100 copies of the 1st edition book unso= ld.=C2=A0 Lightning Source books, as I recall, are substantially cheaper th= an our 1st edition books, and we make corresponding much less on sales.=C2= =A0 I doubt that we will have $1000/yr income from sales, though we might b= e able to get more in donations.

We have generally allocated $500-$1000 for expenses for LogFests.

The bank account has more than $10K in it accumulated, that could allow us = to make one-time expenditures than are more significant.=C2=A0 However, rea= l book publication (as opposed to POD publication with Lightning Source or = other firm) would chew that up instantly.=C2=A0 The original CLL publicatio= n was around $17K for a 1500 copy print run, of which only around 1250 ende= d up salable.

lojbab




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Llg-members@loj= ban.org
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