Received: from localhost ([::1]:49146 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YijNo-0000gP-2A; Thu, 16 Apr 2015 05:59:04 -0700 Received: from mail-qk0-f170.google.com ([209.85.220.170]:34661) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YijNa-0000fj-7J for llg-members@lojban.org; Thu, 16 Apr 2015 05:59:03 -0700 Received: by qkgx75 with SMTP id x75so122471732qkg.1 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 2015 05:58:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=WwU8rV5E2p6dviZo1l6jlD16bH2Tj2JvNZJ5RkxfwN4=; b=TtjJaHwqrTH7lWIQHtCvopBrcUOLsLlk3q9OyGT6n6iD3ydf5XKnPuqvET/SeNYGyU r3VdOwVAu1JDbM2bfi6RpiBd5rkD6vZmEJBk0r5MUKe518VHmWn68H8kddkisVaBF5cB X+UoUun+CjXMlWizOzTKwY7oiTNnHO4b3KIJgAtGi6FBMDosmgqG46Dpf4Fj1PQI22A8 haTUYrnApZG3hHKvI/9vrNmqAFxnjd7XNV1DEH5elvkbtyT0qkYYBl1t9ZjtVVTTT+Ri +cyt+rUTD1BCUcqlZvKstr3SMnDWa8Uv6ah0FGwjdvatr3K+tY9/h1bo/JWiIwz1FSBc eIxQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.55.31.5 with SMTP id f5mr61333569qkf.42.1429189122586; Thu, 16 Apr 2015 05:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.104.129 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Apr 2015 05:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.104.129 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Apr 2015 05:58:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5502321A.2050208@lojban.org> <551ADCFF.20709@lojban.org> <552CA608.50200@lojban.org> <552D0CC2.7080502@selpahi.de> <552DA91A.8090207@lojban.org> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 13:58:42 +0100 Message-ID: From: And Rosta To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] New Business: other topics X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3853337433402503064==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============3853337433402503064== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1147f36af7ff710513d7056b --001a1147f36af7ff710513d7056b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 16 Apr 2015 13:28, "Gleki Arxokuna" wrote: >> Your criterion for rivalhood, for superiority and for livingness, namely having a community of speakers, is irrelevant to the scholarly purposes I had in mind, prompted by the LLG's mission statement. >> >> While it would also be of great service to the world to have an as-fit-for-purpose-as-possible loglang that is actually used by everyone who has use for a loglang, I think it would be counterproductive to try to bring a new loglang 'to life' before there are reasonable grounds for thinking it is as-fit-for-purpose-as-possible. > > > > What is a language if not something used? It is a tool, a code that intertranslates ideas and perceptibilia. While I would certainly argue that my definition of 'language' is much more appropriate than yours (more appropriate relative to the essential nature of language and to the goals of loglanging), such an argument isn't really relevant here. I have clarified, if clarification were necessary, what I meant, in my response to Craig, by 'language'. > How to test it if not by using it to transfer information between people? I won't bother to list the other ways of testing it, since testing it in use would be one of the necessary ways of testing it, but when designing a tool it is often necessary or desirable to test it in use before issuing it for general use. This is particularly the case where it is impractical or undesirable to, once the tool is in general use, make small incremental changes to the design or have multiple competing tools. > If this doesn't happen then you only have a sketch of a language and never it can be understood from its design if it can be used or not until you enter data into it. In my expert opinion your opinion is incorrect. Without usage tests it is possible to determine some ways in which the design fails, and it is possible to at least make highly informed estimates about some ways in which it succeeds. --And. --001a1147f36af7ff710513d7056b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 16 Apr 2015 13:28, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Your criterion for rivalhood, for superiority and for livingness, = namely having a community of speakers, is irrelevant to the scholarly purpo= ses I had in mind, prompted by the LLG's mission statement.=C2=A0
>>
>> While it would also be of great service to the world to have an as= -fit-for-purpose-as-possible loglang that is actually used by everyone who = has use for a loglang, I think it would be counterproductive to try to brin= g a new loglang 'to life' before there are reasonable grounds for t= hinking it is as-fit-for-purpose-as-possible.
>
>
>
> What is a language if not something used?

It is a tool, a code that intertranslates ideas and percepti= bilia.

While I would certainly argue that my definition of 'lan= guage' is much more appropriate than yours (more appropriate relative t= o the essential nature of language and to the goals of loglanging), such an= argument isn't really relevant here. I have clarified, if clarificatio= n were necessary, what I meant, in my response to Craig,=C2=A0 by 'lang= uage'.

> How to test it if not by using it to transfer informati= on between people?

I won't bother to list the other ways of testing it, sin= ce testing it in use would be one of the necessary ways of testing it, but = when designing a tool it is often necessary or desirable to test it in use = before issuing it for general use. This is particularly the case where it i= s impractical or undesirable to, once the tool is in general use, make smal= l incremental changes to the design or have multiple competing tools.

> If this doesn't happen then you only have a sketch = of a language and never it can be understood from its design if it can be u= sed or not until you enter data into it.

In my expert opinion your opinion is incorrect. Without usag= e tests it is possible to determine=C2=A0 some ways in which the design fai= ls, and it is possible to at least make highly informed estimates about som= e ways in which it succeeds.

--And.

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