Received: from localhost ([::1]:42967 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aAY8F-0007TA-Iy; Sat, 19 Dec 2015 23:10:15 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f51.google.com ([74.125.82.51]:36208) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aAY89-0007Sy-MM for llg-members@lojban.org; Sat, 19 Dec 2015 23:10:14 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f51.google.com with SMTP id p187so32800426wmp.1 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2015 23:10:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=DAp/799UeZLiZeqNTIJ7hd1726a97MgsdFVU7d70tjk=; b=hcy1mJDLhd+FCKk0CnVXVOIkDRd5MLmbb7HkX06nJhOtATiSB3nlrRcHhZoU6MsmaJ 4cuYXt+9c9dbKW9L+4OG7zhgOhGrsJOpZdjMGEXBHojziELbLmLd0xoEuk/FztoVuakR HTE0Y6lQfHLAWJK5hHw6ZqVPS2nzweKo4nITimZr03iduG/f7t02Q5iEGVngPpVTN4jr p+oRSSAT4Cr7eIYHk2GP58r/Tcf8qqZ8yJtSqlthIQzBc8Gh4LBlqwNnw5xsnra/2qlP NIdaUEK5U04pdATBRxpfw34cS/NC02AbCMmBAyVtSkcLn4jpEf9iUeUG9FMCXghI+7v1 2yaA== X-Received: by 10.28.88.199 with SMTP id m190mr13588864wmb.55.1450595402953; Sat, 19 Dec 2015 23:10:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.74.105 with HTTP; Sat, 19 Dec 2015 23:09:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5673EFF1.60709@gmail.com> References: <5673EFF1.60709@gmail.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 10:09:23 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Note: SpamAssassin invocation failed Subject: Re: [Llg-members] A story of "Search %s" string in Vivaldi browser X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8623287042624607783==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============8623287042624607783== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114351b8b4b8f205274f0fa4 --001a114351b8b4b8f205274f0fa4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-12-18 14:37 GMT+03:00 Ilmen : > > On 18/12/2015 09:23, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > >> When I was translating Vivaldi browser interface to Lojban I aimed at th= e >> full translation of 100% of strings, which ended in Lojban being added t= o >> Vivaldi beta version while Esperanto and Ido got removed due to incomple= te >> translations. >> >> However, I faced one string that I couldn't unambiguously translate. The >> string is >> "Search" and the browser uses that to form a placeholder in the browser >> search inputbox to form "Search Google", "Search Bing" and similar. >> >> And what I found is that Lojban presents no solutions. >> 1. I used {sisku sepi'o la'oi} =3D> {sisku sepi'o la'oi Google}. The >> experimental cmavo {la'oi} quotes one word that must not contain spaces = of >> pauses inside. Hence, its immediate drawback. Users can add a search eng= ine >> leading to {sisku sepi'o la'oi Lojban MediaWiki} where "MediaWiki" hangs= in >> space. >> 2. Neither {la'o zoi.XXX.zoi} method is fine. A search engine named >> ".zoi" leads to {la'o zoi..zoi.zoi} quoting an empty string and the last >> ".zoi" hangs in space. The browser is not able to change "zoi" separator= s >> on the fly. >> 3. However, the solution in English is unambiguous. It's a user interfac= e >> widget, kinda {lu ... li'u} quoted text. >> >> widget (inputbox) boundaries are analogous to this {lu ... li'u}. >> >> This text can't refer to anything outside it, it's a thing in itself but >> this thing can be parsed and used by external mechanisms. >> >> "Search Lojban MediaWiki" means that after "Search " we have an arbitrar= y >> plain text in an unknown language until End Of Feed is reached. >> >> I imagine Lojban community could extend {la} to be able to catch >> non-Lojban text until the end of file/feed is reached. >> >> But in the current conditions I see it as a drawback of the language. >> >> > Maybe this should be discussed on the BPFK mailing list rather than here. > Missed that sentence. Yes and no. Technically Lojban has a solution (la'o zoi ... zoi with changing delimiters when needed). But then comes a part not dependent on the language. I initially posted a message about my translation https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/da6VUtMDDLE/discussion saying "Feedback is more than welcomed." However, no such feedback has ever been provided in the mailing list. *If someone disagrees with the localization or wants to suggest something* *the correct algorithm is* *TO PROVIDE FEEDBACK* like Ilmen just did. *The same applies to other projects where I'm asking for help. If a help or feedback is requested then it's needed!* *Don't hesitate to reply to such requests!* By the way I have already implemented Ilmen's proposal with {ti} + {fa'o}. It should come to Vivaldi technical releases in a few weeks. Just feel free to update it regularly. > If the string to be translated is of the form "... %s ..." (with %s > standing for the name of the search engine), then I think something like > {la'o cirlrbri. %s .cirlrbri} does pretty good (with some separator word > that'd be very unlikely to clash with the name of the browser, unless thi= s > latter one is chosen intentionally to clash with the separator). > > Another option could be using something like =C2=AB sisku se pi'o lo se c= mene > be ti =E2=86=92 fa'o %s =C2=BB or =C2=AB sisku se pi'o lo se cmene be lo = se lidne be dei fa'o > %s =C2=BB. > > =E2=80=94Ilmen. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > --001a114351b8b4b8f205274f0fa4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-12-18 14:37 GMT+03:00 Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>= ;:

On 18/12/2015 09:23, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
When I was translating Vivaldi browser interface to Lojban I aimed at the f= ull translation of 100% of strings, which ended in Lojban being added to Vi= valdi beta version while Esperanto and Ido got removed due to incomplete tr= anslations.

However, I faced one string that I couldn't unambiguously translate. Th= e string is
"Search" and the browser uses that to form a placeholder in the b= rowser search inputbox to form "Search Google", "Search Bing= " and similar.

And what I found is that Lojban presents no solutions.
1. I used {sisku sepi'o la'oi} =3D> {sisku sepi'o la'oi = Google}. The experimental cmavo {la'oi} quotes one word that must not c= ontain spaces of pauses inside. Hence, its immediate drawback. Users can ad= d a search engine leading to {sisku sepi'o la'oi Lojban MediaWiki} = where "MediaWiki" hangs in space.
2. Neither {la'o zoi.XXX.zoi} method is fine. A search engine named &qu= ot;.zoi" leads to {la'o zoi..zoi.zoi} quoting an empty string and = the last ".zoi" hangs in space. The browser is not able to change= "zoi" separators on the fly.
3. However, the solution in English is unambiguous. It's a user interfa= ce widget, kinda {lu ... li'u} quoted text.

widget (inputbox) boundaries are analogous to this {lu ... li'u}.

This text can't refer to anything outside it, it's a thing in itsel= f but this thing can be parsed and used by external mechanisms.

"Search Lojban MediaWiki" means that after "Search " we= have an arbitrary plain text in an unknown language until End Of Feed is r= eached.

I imagine Lojban community could extend {la} to be able to catch non-Lojban= text until the end of file/feed is reached.

But in the current conditions I see it as a drawback of the language.


Maybe this should be discussed on the BPFK mailing list rather than here.

Missed that sentence.
Yes and = no.

Technically Lojban has a solution (la'o zo= i ... zoi with changing delimiters when needed).
But then comes a= part not dependent on the language.
I initially posted a message= about my translation=C2=A0

saying "Feedb= ack is more than welcomed."=C2=A0

However, no= such feedback has ever been provided in the mailing list.
If someone disagrees with the localization or wants to sugg= est something
the correct algorithm is
TO= PROVIDE FEEDBACK

like Ilmen just did.

The same applies to other projects where I'm askin= g for help. If a help or feedback is requested then it's needed!
Don't hesitate to reply to such requests!

=
By the way I have already implemented Ilmen's proposal with = {ti} + {fa'o}. It should come to Vivaldi technical releases in a few we= eks. Just feel free to update it regularly.


If the string to be translated is of the form "... %s ..." (with = %s standing for the name of the search engine), then I think something like= {la'o cirlrbri. %s .cirlrbri} does pretty good (with some separator wo= rd that'd be very unlikely to clash with the name of the browser, unles= s this latter one is chosen intentionally to clash with the separator).

Another option could be using something like =C2=AB sisku se pi'o lo se= cmene be ti =E2=86=92 fa'o %s =C2=BB or =C2=AB sisku se pi'o lo se= cmene be lo se lidne be dei fa'o %s =C2=BB.

=E2=80=94Ilmen.



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-membe= rs

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