Received: from localhost ([::1]:57552 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aBdLd-0005a6-Tt; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 22:56:33 -0800 Received: from mail-io0-f196.google.com ([209.85.223.196]:34968) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aBdLX-0005Zr-Tt for llg-members@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 22:56:32 -0800 Received: by mail-io0-f196.google.com with SMTP id o67so18691995iof.2 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 22:56:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=C2O+vUkvgy5xazdXf7akW/GCPREYwfdlURGLOLa4Pdk=; b=PpCXWKSuflzYc7D5/gF9C8AQHf3m1Li2a2gd3rwkvoOQFagKjO4H5VhsqrGsOC2JGV IJmiAIHq5JHiySe1gHpQd57+eN8yw5taJo+u2EDhcN+yBS8yKHhRtSuvsSml7Ze4otSg Ha8WE/keA8KiMsPhUbHkTR7nL1IexMYHQ+1cVX0u5hZ5DbsXmjdSvFMxb3ktaW5pEHZt cr9hT3Pi2j/RBDdwT6Yk95LaHmn067t4EH+WDcEKEKhsdx81le7SK7R/LDGNzPurHffJ a/QJK2pytKD2WKqcmoigm8WFoZdPS6BAhshaWA0XwmIKAVg8yYN+Y2mhOYTgirZnD+aV 2p/Q== X-Received: by 10.107.10.88 with SMTP id u85mr14760026ioi.5.1450853781856; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 22:56:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.79.1.102 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 22:55:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <563CBDA4.5080308@selpahi.de> <4E514785-A922-4D75-B34A-EFB3880C5712@gmail.com> <566701E3.4060408@lojban.org> <566CD949.7010504@lojban.org> <5671E710.2020407@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 09:55:41 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] 2015 Annual Meeting X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0878672935000620171==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============0878672935000620171== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f9b4449e8a505278b38e9 --001a113f9b4449e8a505278b38e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-12-22 22:55 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka : > (Karen, we only received the first sentence of your post.) > > Here are my fragmented thoughts about what LLG should do in the coming > year(s): > > - I agree that we should leave language definition issues to BPFK. They > are better equipped because the predominant language of discussion is (at > least recently) Lojban, and due to the 2014 rechartering which allows it to > make useful decisions *without* making a political claim of the form "X > is Lojban and Y is not". > > - Lojban has a publicity problem. Not enough people know about the > language, which means the pool of potential learners/speakers is too small. > One way that LLG can combat this is to facilitate people doing publicity > and outreach. This could be done by simply paying them, or providing > funding for advertising campaigns (could include startup funds for things > that would eventually make the LLG money, like selling books and > merchandise) > Well, I'd disagree about that for the current epoch when there are no good books in English. People can't learn Lojban and the only reason for that is the lack of learning resources. The only way to master fluency is either to join the main chat or to get paid lessons. So any advertising campaign a la Esperanto would be a waste of time, financial resources and would even be dangerous. One example is xorlo which for 12 years has been impeding the development of Lojban (and still doing so) breaking earlier promises for a stable language. This might not be applied to e.g. Japanese learning resources, which i just can't assess. > , providing them with server space, sending them to conferences, etc. > Another thing I think would help is partnerships/coordination with other > groups! The LCS (Language Creation Society) is one example. In their recent > meeting they talked about their lending library and I think we should give > them a CLL1.1 to put in there (and a CLL2 as soon as it's ready, of course). > And something more learnable because at their Conlangery podcast they literally laughed at CLL not being able to understand what is lujvo. And it's not just they. "Talk:Lojban grammar" page in Wikipedia also has a similar observation. Lojban grammar is described in pseudo-English and enigmatic (might no longer be the case since I've edited that wikipedia article). I'd rather say that Lojban is very far from linguistics, even polyglots and professional linguists can't understand CLL. We should make sure we have ongoing contact with groups such as nooLearn > who are trying to build things with Lojban. LLG presumably needs to appoint > a point person for such coordinations, or assign one of the officers to > manage communications. > > - Lojban also has an inertia problem. Many projects plod along slowly > (e.g. CLL, though recent progress has been very encouraging) or get started > but never finished (e.g. the proficiency test > Proficiency test is unavailable because there could not be any judges. And nowadays the second problem still persists, namely, shouldn't it be in some interactive electronic form. > , printed dictionary, L4B > Hasn't L4B been published? > ). This is quite understandable (and I fault myself here as well of > course) because initial design work is much more fun than necessary grunt > work. Merely exhorting people to work on things doesn't really work. > Perhaps monetary rewards for completion of milestones on important > projects, essentially a bounty system, could help? > Yes, I already suggested that instead of spending money on currently unproductive Logfests. CLL2 and the proficiency test would be examples. > > - This has come up ad nauseum before, but most of our official online > presence runs from a server (two servers?) in Robin's basement, AFAIK. I am > *not* suggesting that he does a bad job of managing this. However, if > Robin wants to transition away from this role, it seems very reasonable for > LLG to pay for some (virtual) server infrastructure and hire someone to > administer it. I can help with this if we go that route. > I should say that for the last two months I forgot about Robin because the servers became superstable. But yes, virtual hosting without payments for the actual load on it (since we don't know the actual load) might be desirable in future. > - Jbonunsla attendance is indeed a problem. I was there this year and it > was fun but we did not have a critical mass. > You didn't even report what was going on there. Has anyone but la tsani spoke fluent Lojban? If no reports then by default one is to assume that it was useless. There are a couple of ways we could get more attendance. The problem is > that the Lojban communities are highly geographically decentralized. One > possibility is awarding travel grants, but this could easily blow through > the bank account in a year or two. I think a more sustainable idea is to > change jbonunsla to more of an online conference model. Workshops and > discussions can be held over videoconference and recorded for posterity. > Or maybe just no physical conferences until more important problems are fixed. > > - In the last meeting we talked about facilitating communication between > disparate Lojban communities, but nothing really got started. I strongly > believe this is important for the future of the language. LLG may need to > pay some natlang translators to get this off the ground > yes, after there is something to translate. And this is a huge problem since people need to immediately find parallels of patterns from their native language in Lojban. One cannot just translate existing resources into languages that are far from Standard Average European because a lot of would be missed. In our recent project on fast populating Tatoeba.org with examples I noted that Lojban by now is almost a relex of English (.ui dai for machine translation and .ui nai for Lojban community). > , until enough people in each community are proficient enough in Lojban. > An online jbonunsla (kibjbonunsla?) should contribute to this by having > more international participation. > --001a113f9b4449e8a505278b38e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-12-22 22:55 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka <durka42@gmail.com>:
(Karen, we only = received the first sentence of your post.)

Her= e are my fragmented thoughts about what LLG should do in the coming year(s)= :

- I agree that we should leave language definition is= sues to BPFK. They are better equipped because the predominant language of = discussion is (at least recently) Lojban, and due to the 2014 rechartering = which allows it to make useful decisions without making a political = claim of the form "X is Lojban and Y is not".

= - Lojban has a publicity problem. Not enough people know about the language= , which means the pool of potential learners/speakers is too small. One way= that LLG can combat this is to facilitate people doing publicity and outre= ach. This could be done by simply paying them, or providing funding for adv= ertising campaigns (could include startup funds for things that would event= ually make the LLG money, like selling books and merchandise)

Well, I'd disagree about that for the cu= rrent epoch when there are no good books in English.

People can't learn Lojban and the only reason for that is the lack o= f learning resources.
The only way to master fluency is either to= join the main chat or to get paid lessons.

So any= advertising campaign a la Esperanto would be a waste of time, financial re= sources and would even be dangerous.

One example i= s xorlo which for 12 years has been impeding the development of Lojban (and= still doing so) breaking earlier promises for a stable language.

This might not be applied to e.g. Japanese learning resourc= es, which i just can't assess.
=C2=A0
, providing them with server space, = sending them to conferences, etc. Another thing I think would help is partn= erships/coordination with other groups! The LCS (Language Creation Society)= is one example. In their recent meeting they talked about their lending li= brary and I think we should give them a CLL1.1 to put in there (and a CLL2 = as soon as it's ready, of course).

And something more learnable because at their Conlangery podcast th= ey literally laughed at CLL not being able to understand what is lujvo.

And it's not just they. "Talk:Lojban grammar= " page in Wikipedia also has a similar observation. Lojban grammar is = described in pseudo-English and enigmatic (might no longer be the case sinc= e I've edited that wikipedia article).

I'd= rather say that Lojban is very far from linguistics, even polyglots and pr= ofessional linguists can't understand CLL.

We should make= sure we have ongoing contact with groups such as nooLearn who are trying t= o build things with Lojban. LLG presumably needs to appoint a point person = for such coordinations, or assign one of the officers to manage communicati= ons.

- Lojban also has an inertia problem. Many pr= ojects plod along slowly (e.g. CLL, though recent progress has been very en= couraging) or get started but never finished (e.g. the proficiency test

Proficiency test is unavailable be= cause there could not be any judges.
And nowadays the second prob= lem still persists, namely, shouldn't it be in some interactive electro= nic form.

=C2=A0
, printed dictionary, L4B
=

Hasn't L4B been published?
=C2=A0
). This is quite underst= andable (and I fault myself here as well of course) because initial design = work is much more fun than necessary grunt work. Merely exhorting people to= work on things doesn't really work. Perhaps monetary rewards for compl= etion of milestones on important projects, essentially a bounty system, cou= ld help?

Yes, I already sugges= ted that instead of spending money on currently unproductive Logfests.

CLL2 a= nd the proficiency test would be examples.

- This = has come up ad nauseum before, but most of our official online presence run= s from a server (two servers?) in Robin's basement, AFAIK. I am not<= /b> suggesting that he does a bad job of managing this. However, if Robin w= ants to transition away from this role, it seems very reasonable for LLG to= pay for some (virtual) server infrastructure and hire someone to administe= r it. I can help with this if we go that route.

I should say that for the last two months I forgot abo= ut Robin because the servers became superstable.=C2=A0

=
But yes, virtual hosting without payments for the actual load on it (s= ince we don't know the actual load) might be desirable in future.
=

<= div>
- Jbonunsla attendance is indeed a problem. I was there = this year and it was fun but we did not have a critical mass.

You didn't even report what was going on= there. Has anyone but la tsani spoke fluent Lojban?=C2=A0
If no = reports then by default one is to assume that it was useless.

= There are a couple of ways we could get more attendance. The problem is th= at the Lojban communities are highly geographically decentralized. One poss= ibility is awarding travel grants, but this could easily blow through the b= ank account in a year or two. I think a more sustainable idea is to change = jbonunsla to more of an online conference model. Workshops and discussions = can be held over videoconference and recorded for posterity.

Or maybe just no physical conferences until m= ore important problems are fixed.
=C2=A0

- In the last meeting we= talked about facilitating communication between disparate Lojban communiti= es, but nothing really got started. I strongly believe this is important fo= r the future of the language. LLG may need to pay some natlang translators = to get this off the ground

yes,= after there is something to translate. And this is a huge problem since pe= ople need to immediately find parallels of patterns from their native langu= age in Lojban. One cannot just translate existing resources into languages = that are far from Standard Average European because a lot of would be misse= d.

In our recent project on fast populating Tatoeb= a.org with examples I noted that Lojban by now is almost a relex of English= (.ui dai for machine translation and .ui nai for Lojban community).
<= div>=C2=A0
, unti= l enough people in each community are proficient enough in Lojban. An onlin= e jbonunsla (kibjbonunsla?) should contribute to this by having more intern= ational participation.
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