Received: from localhost ([::1]:35926 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aC7BD-00061R-LM; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 06:47:47 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f54.google.com ([74.125.82.54]:36911) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aC7B6-00061C-Vm for llg-members@lojban.org; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 06:47:45 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f54.google.com with SMTP id p187so184996999wmp.0 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 06:47:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=CerIcDh0JfsNe+/D6NwQmDFdBu5VMRqK70TmDnEQS1M=; b=kVNRDNnJUi4RxuFqdIl29JzjOSbqPsbKAxsXKJjcxuK/8gAvSJMROy2Idp2PgMQ+fK ary2cHh4so2fzLTklOvOxau4iBRapRy3OHQk8FDL3/HTNum1RZGTwMbI4P21k7BwM441 G3w78piXQhrEgFsSE++vlv1JqYxNT65k8uBnOpM3FJsHlLksS9+D4M8fKGepCsM/okKL oCXVfRJ3MnOyFccBq0ZxYBH9I7zmVXTrhD5mPu/vJSDnUSr0RPppUt2kcH0+3YJJ/q3Q JjYdlA6mCzI0hoVfQYDy3WH5luSOnBkjJN8Ba6EtTCGqLRYlQo/Fzy+ZRim8ZMNDuoTo LF1w== X-Received: by 10.194.117.228 with SMTP id kh4mr39119456wjb.171.1450968454354; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 06:47:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.92.206 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 06:46:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <563CBDA4.5080308@selpahi.de> <4E514785-A922-4D75-B34A-EFB3880C5712@gmail.com> <566701E3.4060408@lojban.org> <566CD949.7010504@lojban.org> <5671E710.2020407@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 17:46:54 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] 2015 Annual Meeting X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5172349938468517638==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============5172349938468517638== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1130d1344d5f3a0527a5eb40 --001a1130d1344d5f3a0527a5eb40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-12-24 17:33 GMT+03:00 guskant : > 2015-12-24 13:30 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna : > > > > > > 2015-12-24 16:08 GMT+03:00 guskant : > >> > >> > >> 2015-12-23 6:55 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna : > >> > > >> > I'd rather say that Lojban is very far from linguistics, even > polyglots > >> > and > >> > professional linguists can't understand CLL. > >> > > >> > >> Did you take statistics of it? I'm neither linguist nor polyglot, but > >> in my opinion, CLL, even the first version, is the easiest to > >> understand among all the learning materials in English. > > > > > > Well, lucky you that you are neither a linguist nor a polyglot. > > It might be so that polyglots and conlangers > > ( > http://conlangery.com/2012/03/19/conlangery-42-practicum-getting-rid-of-adjectives/ > > ) may just expect something written in "normal" linguistic terminology. > > > > I have no idea how and whether they tried to learn Straits Salishan > language > > but even the latter at least *seems* to be described in some set of terms > > usual to linguists. > > > > And when they don't find it they laugh at it or just throw away. > > To name the third case (the second is Wikipedia) Andre Muller on Facebook > > said that after abandoning Lojban he had to read The Crash Course where > the > > word "predicate" was not even mentioned at that time and only after that > > (having understood the basics) he returned to reading CLL. > > > > > > OK, so you have no statistics and opine based on your own ideal. > No stats since too few people ever succeeded. And those were their opinions, not mine. You may check themselves. I can send a link to the post in facebook (the third case). > > We have now two different opinions about CLL: > 1. You think that other polyglots and conlangers don't understand CLL. > 2. Masato, the super-polyglot, and I, the ordinary person, both think > that the current CLL is easy to understand. > If Masato speaks only English, Chinese and Japanese then he is in usual sense not a polyglot. 5 languages are usually required. But he is a programmer and we know that being a programmer is the most common trend among Lojbanists. > > From these very limited information, we can only conclude: > 1-1. In order to promote Lojban to other polyglots and conlangers, > some text in terms of linguistics are necessary. > Yes. > 2-1. In order to promote Lojban to super-polyglots and ordinary > people, the current CLL is enough (though some modifications based on > the development of Lojban are required for the next version). > I wouldn't limit anyone in any resources at all. We can't know beforehand life experience of newcomers. It's much easier than that. CLL is to be retained, L4B and la'e {la lojban. mo} are to be either updated or abandoned. New resources are to be constantly updated, monitored and presented to newcomers. I would in every way welcome any new methods of presenting and teaching Lojban. After that we can observe some trends and make some conclusions. > Then, we have only one peaceful solution: you make another book for > linguists, and the others brush up CLL for super-polyglots and > ordinary people according to the current policy. > CLL as it is now is absolutely fine to me. Maybe there is some abuse of English terminology like "letteral" but in general nothing serious is to be fixed. One can add a short notice "lo sumti correspond to nouns, pronouns, names in English", and this notice would be enough. I can imagine this book only expanding. Simply, as la .pycyn. said it's not a textbook :). That's why people are having problems with understanding it. > > > > >> > >> Masato > >> Hagiwara, who is fluent in Japanese, Chinese and English, and also a > >> researcher of Natural Language Processing, agreed to my opinion. > > > > > > Oh well, how many people on Earth are like Masato Hagiwara? > > He is a hyperpolyglot if you consider programming languages as languages. > > > > We need to extend Lojban presence by repacking its learning resources > into > > better words and better forms. > > > > Even for those who know nothing of logic, programming, conlangery and who > > don't speak anything but their only native language. > > > > Like that Hajiloji website. > > > > Yes, you need of course a website like Hajiloji, but my subject here > is only the next version of CLL, not the elementary courses. > Oh, sorry then. No, I don't have any revolutionary plans regarding CLL. The Errata page and the github repo are IMO the main places to discuss anything related to the content of CLL. I'd rather discuss a possible reference grammar written in pure Lojban. --001a1130d1344d5f3a0527a5eb40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-12-24 17:33 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com><= /span>:
2015-12-24 13:30= GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>:
>
>
> 2015-12-24 16:08 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> 2015-12-23 6:55 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>:
>> >
>> > I'd rather say that Lojban is ver= y far from linguistics, even polyglots
>> > and
>> > professional linguists can't understand CLL.
>> >
>>
>> Did you take statistics of it? I'm neither linguist nor polygl= ot, but
>> in my opinion, CLL, even the first version, is the easiest to
>> understand among all the learning materials in English.
>
>
> Well, lucky you that you are neither a linguist nor a polyglot.
> It might be so that polyglots and conlangers
> (http://conl= angery.com/2012/03/19/conlangery-42-practicum-getting-rid-of-adjectives/
> ) may just expect something written in "normal" linguistic t= erminology.
>
> I have no idea how and whether they tried to learn Straits Salishan la= nguage
> but even the latter at least *seems* to be described in some set of te= rms
> usual to linguists.
>
> And when they don't find it they laugh at it or just throw away. > To name the third case (the second is Wikipedia) Andre Muller on Faceb= ook
> said that after abandoning Lojban he had to read The Crash Course wher= e the
> word "predicate" was not even mentioned at that time and onl= y after that
> (having understood the basics) he returned to reading CLL.
>
>

OK, so you have no statistics and opine based on your own ideal.
=

=C2=A0

We have now two different opinions about CLL:
1. You think that other polyglots and conlangers don't understand CLL.<= br> 2. Masato, the super-polyglot, and I, the ordinary person, both think
that the current CLL is easy to understand.

=
If Masato speaks only English, Chinese and Japanese then he is in usua= l sense not a polyglot. 5 languages are usually required.

But he is a programmer and we know that being a programmer is the m= ost common trend among Lojbanists.
=C2=A0

From these very limited information, we can only conclude:
1-1. In order to promote Lojban to other polyglots and conlangers,
some text in terms of linguistics are necessary.

<= /div>
Yes.
=C2=A0
2-1. In order to promote Lojban to super-polyglots and ordinary
people, the current CLL is enough (though some modifications based on
the development of Lojban are required for the next version).

I wouldn't limit anyone in any resources at all.= We can't know beforehand life experience of newcomers.

<= /div>
It's much easier than that.
CLL is to be retained, = L4B and la'e {la lojban. mo} are to be either updated or abandoned.
New resources are to be constantly updated, monitored and presented = to newcomers.
I would in every way welcome any new methods o= f presenting and teaching Lojban.

After that= we can observe some trends and make some conclusions.

=

Then, we have only one peaceful solution: you make another book for
linguists, and the others brush up CLL for super-polyglots and
ordinary people according to the current policy.

<= /div>
CLL as it is now is absolutely fine to me. Maybe there is some ab= use of English terminology like "letteral" but in general nothing= serious is to be fixed. One can add a short notice "lo sumti correspo= nd to nouns, pronouns, names in English", and this notice would be eno= ugh. I can imagine this book only expanding.

Simpl= y, as la .pycyn. said it's not a textbook :). That's why people are= having problems with understanding it.



>
>>
>> Masato
>> Hagiwara, who is fluent in Japanese, Chinese and English, and also= a
>> researcher of Natural Language Processing, agreed to my opinion. >
>
> Oh well, how many people on Earth are like Masato Hagiwara?
> He is a hyperpolyglot if you consider programming languages as languag= es.
>
> We need to extend Lojban presence by repacking its learning resources = into
> better words and better forms.
>
> Even for those who know nothing of logic, programming, conlangery and = who
> don't speak anything but their only native language.
>
> Like that Hajiloji website.
>

Yes, you need of course a website like Hajiloji, but my subject here=
is only the next version of CLL, not the elementary courses.

Oh, sorry then. No, I don't have any revolutionar= y plans regarding CLL. The Errata page and the github repo are IMO =C2=A0th= e main places to discuss anything related to the content of CLL.
=
I'd rather discuss a possible reference grammar written = in pure Lojban.
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