Received: from localhost ([::1]:59833 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1b0pgR-0007v1-UG; Thu, 12 May 2016 05:25:39 -0700 Received: from mail-lb0-f172.google.com ([209.85.217.172]:34766) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1b0pgK-0007tw-Gq for llg-members@lojban.org; Thu, 12 May 2016 05:25:37 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f172.google.com with SMTP id n11so10082644lbh.1 for ; Thu, 12 May 2016 05:25:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ABnDoRV9Yr9inYpjWyVMIe+G5qdcQB489AWTJAl4HYY=; b=cSpQCfFIFEvE77qOtPPMHcdTtiUhhf9NegH7nQkkFQgDzeKdxSgi4i8e+8UpYs9uYK dxiQBueLKfQ9IV8cbKO9tjUprmm35uH+0zQeVGpUM1oDaKsrekoKa1i7YrwsMYdp/lyB 4JzKZiF+d2Mg+pbp/jOQgFE5MrHt2YKE4ddShdEg/RRSJDy8z34kNgw5PHqQBiQ7F4z9 UT5rMkfIe07LlnQI84kgYbzRBYxnJF4nbRFYM35bdwnxLNxebYty9uZmdXjU4PUnru3N 5DTCJRjMSe643PPm0QSGuSoBnneD10m3895ZAOp/xIAcEvh8kk6sILoj2do6Przaell8 fZGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ABnDoRV9Yr9inYpjWyVMIe+G5qdcQB489AWTJAl4HYY=; b=W+s77qSNr3xpsjCk+mfj1CWqHF/hj2VpkLEQb19gvvlGEIrFQO/z9u6uYQHUS+Vuge B9AR3G0tj6YmYLQOf4u/Tdg/A9LzVgh9y/PsU8HpZ+P862vSC6oritAmnV0p+Nc5KJeY 5JZlaRzKIHNYlGSCTmgY347DUMiZiBA+jehh0dNa3Pec+Blkjs8NwP4as+4/kWXr/Pk+ hUIHsWLyi2m17aol/9SP3S0J+VMOU6NRD1Ae1I8CSuAEhiiAsO4Fsne5cwLfiWTWlqe7 54hg0z7zdrVG+CHvSm5VsyQsFHHutss3isPP051RytGw7gD8PL75M3FAouLJ3SbVcSms GFog== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXIh0+HmvruslMzaJ+wkVI36SHzpELwBAFDe4H811cWnyv6IjpMI/NBAFSOKgSTdZGx2FGm2hWyUfWbKg== X-Received: by 10.112.124.228 with SMTP id ml4mr3680338lbb.113.1463055925236; Thu, 12 May 2016 05:25:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.199.163 with HTTP; Thu, 12 May 2016 05:24:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <8B3122F0-71E9-42C1-852D-1492D9DC8B52@gmail.com> <5733B5C8.7000902@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 15:24:45 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Violation of copyright X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1172392146584948868==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============1172392146584948868== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bfd0374b5da580532a4400f --047d7bfd0374b5da580532a4400f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2016-05-12 15:15 GMT+03:00 guskant : > 2016-05-11 22:44 GMT+00:00 Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - > LLG : > > > > > > It is always possible that someone will misbehave on a mailing list > > (including even this one) and, in doing so, violate copyright. As long > as > > we are quickly responsive to a complaint about such a copyright violation > > and remove the material, we should be OK, especially since there is no > money > > involved. > > > > I agree. However, the matter on the topic is different from the case > that a member of a group or an anonymous person posts something that > violates copyright. That picture on the Russian Lojban group was used > as header image, that means a symbolic icon of the group, and > ordinarily such an image can be handled by group administrators only. > > > > > > We are more likely to run into problems with translations of copyrighted > > text and music that we link to on our website, because we KNOW that these > > are copyright violations. Translation of "The Little Prince", and books > > like the Berenstein Bears, and various music pieces are linked on our > > website. I've noticed that we now have credits to the authors or > composers > > of such pieces, but I believe that the law requires explicit permission, > as > > would be needed for the art usage complained to guskant. (Translation > > usually falls under copyright as "derivative works") > > > > As for the particular case of "Le Petit Prince", the copyright has > expired in most countries in the world except France, where a special > law is applied to "morts pour la France", and the US, where copyright > renewal is applied. I don't know if "le cmalu noltru" page on the > official website must reject access from those two countries, or must > move the content to a server in another country. > > Generally the Lojban translations should not violate the copyright of > the original works, or course. Remember we have a private mailing list > [jbofanva] for translation of copyrighted works. > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/jbofanva > > > > > > I've raised the issue to the Board, and we might as well discuss it here > for > > purposes of consideration by anyone who undertakes official managing the > > Lojban website. How much effort will we make to avoid copyright > violations > > in Lojban translations, artwork, and music, vs. merely removing such > > material if someone complains? Do we need an explicit statement of our > > policy on the major pages linking such materials, since there are a > number > > of people who can modify wiki pages? Are there other things that we > > can/should do the respect the rights of creators? > > > > lojbab > > > > As for translation or creation works in Lojban, I think the works > should be put out of the official website, and only lists of links for > accessing those works should be put on the official website, as we > already have them: > > https://mw.lojban.org/papri/te_gerna_la_lojban > https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_music > > (though the list of the first page above is not yet well arranged.) > > The official body need not take responsibility on the copyright > matters of translation or creation works by people. > > > > 2016-05-12 6:09 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna : > > > > > > 2016-05-12 1:53 GMT+03:00 guskant : > >> > >> > >> Also, because most of the current pages on mw.lojban.org are out of > >> LLG's control and filled with Gleki's original research, I recommend > >> that all the officially approved pages should be clearly listed on the > >> top page or any page most accessible to users. > > > > > > Or they can be first edited to conform to LLG's views. > > > > Btw, not only Gleki's. Most pages on mw.lojban.org are copies of > > tiki.lojban.org which on its own almost always is original research. > > > > > > I know, but the process to the current state of the pages is different > between tiki-originated pages and Gleki's original research pages. > > Originally, each tiki-based page had clear history of edition on the > page itself, and all visitors had access to the information of the > creator and editors of the page. It was very helpful for visitors who > want to know the responsibility of every part of the pages. I regret > that the whole history vanished when the tiki pages were copied to > mediawiki, though I understand it was a result of a technical issue. > So now we need to tag all the pages, even the tiki ones, right? > > On the other hand, Gleki's original research pages were created on > mediawiki from scratch. As we know anonymous visitors cannot view the > history of each page, Technically they can: https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Lojban&action=history The button was hidden for anonymous users to prevent cluttering of user interface. > Gleki could be more carful to include > information about the responsibility on each page of his original > research, but he didn't. I did. Pages imported from the tiki were initially marked as "jbocre: " in their name. It was planned to inject a notice at the top of each page that it's not official but since nobody supported that I renamed them back to no-prefix ones. And that was before the mediawiki was made official. Actually API allows to inject any message onto all pages automatically. The only requirement is that someone will need to remove that message from pages that don't require that. So 1. Either we can show "History" button back. 2. Or we can add a "It's not official" warning to every page in "Main" namespace. But then we need Someone to remove that message from pages that don't need it. What shall we choose? --047d7bfd0374b5da580532a4400f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2016-05-12 15:15 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com><= /span>:
2016-05-11 22:44 GMT+00:00 Bob= LeChevalier, President and Founder -
LLG <lojbab@lojban.org>:
>
>
> It is always possible that someone will misbeh= ave on a mailing list
> (including even this one) and, in doing so, violate copyright.=C2=A0 A= s long as
> we are quickly responsive to a complaint about such a copyright violat= ion
> and remove the material, we should be OK, especially since there is no= money
> involved.
>

I agree. However, the matter on the topic is different from the case=
that a member of a group or an anonymous person posts something that
violates copyright. That picture on the Russian Lojban group was used
as header image, that means a symbolic icon of the group, and
ordinarily such an image can be handled by group administrators only.


>
> We are more likely to run into problems with translations of copyright= ed
> text and music that we link to on our website, because we KNOW that th= ese
> are copyright violations.=C2=A0 Translation of "The Little Prince= ", and books
> like the Berenstein Bears, and various music pieces are linked on our<= br> > website.=C2=A0 I've noticed that we now have credits to the author= s or composers
> of such pieces, but I believe that the law requires explicit permissio= n, as
> would be needed for the art usage complained to guskant.=C2=A0 (Transl= ation
> usually falls under copyright as "derivative works")
>

As for the particular case of "Le Petit Prince", the copyr= ight has
expired in most countries in the world except France, where a special
law is applied to "morts pour la France", and the US, where copyr= ight
renewal is applied. I don't know if "le cmalu noltru" page on= the
official website must reject access from those two countries, or must
move the content to a server in another country.

Generally the Lojban translations should not violate the copyright of
the original works, or course. Remember we have a private mailing list
[jbofanva] for translation of copyrighted works.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/jbofanva=


>
> I've raised the issue to the Board, and we might as well discuss i= t here for
> purposes of consideration by anyone who undertakes official managing t= he
> Lojban website.=C2=A0 How much effort will we make to avoid copyright = violations
> in Lojban translations, artwork, and music, vs. merely removing such > material if someone complains?=C2=A0 Do we need an explicit statement = of our
> policy on the major pages linking such materials, since there are a nu= mber
> of people who can modify wiki pages?=C2=A0 Are there other things that= we
> can/should do the respect the rights of creators?
>
> lojbab
>

As for translation or creation works in Lojban, I think the works should be put out of the official website, and only lists of links for
accessing those works should be put on the official website, as we
already have them:

https://mw.lojban.org/papri/te_gerna_la_lojban
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_music

(though the list of the first page above is not yet well arranged.)

The official body need not take responsibility on the copyright
matters of translation or creation works by people.



2016-05-12 6:09 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>:
>
>
> 2016-05-12 1:53 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> Also, because most of the current pages on= mw.l= ojban.org are out of
>> LLG's control and filled with Gleki's original research, I= recommend
>> that all the officially approved pages should be clearly listed on= the
>> top page or any page most accessible to users.
>
>
> Or they can be first edited to conform to LLG's views.
>
> Btw, not only Gleki's. Most pages on mw.lojban.org are copies of > tiki.lojban.org which on its own almost always is original research.<= br> >
>

I know, but the process to the current state of the pages is differe= nt
between tiki-originated pages and Gleki's original research pages.

Originally, each tiki-based page had clear history of edition on the
page itself, and all visitors had access to the information of the
creator and editors of the page. It was very helpful for visitors who
want to know the responsibility of every part of the pages. I regret
that the whole history vanished when the tiki pages were copied to
mediawiki, though I understand it was a result of a technical issue.

So now we need to tag all the pages, even the= tiki ones, right?
=C2=A0

On the other hand, Gleki's original research pages were created on
mediawiki from scratch. As we know anonymous visitors cannot view the
history of each page,

Technically they can:=

The button was hidden for anonymous= users to prevent cluttering of user interface.

= =C2=A0
Gleki could be more carful to include
information about the responsibility on each page of his original
research, but he didn't.

I did. Pages i= mported from the tiki were initially marked as "jbocre: " in thei= r name. It was planned to inject a notice at the top of each page that it&#= 39;s not official but since nobody supported that I renamed them back to no= -prefix ones.

And that was before the mediawiki wa= s made official.
Actually API allows to inject any message onto a= ll pages automatically.
The only requirement is that someone will= need to remove that message from pages that don't require that.
<= div>
So=C2=A0
1. Either we can show "History&q= uot; button back.
2. Or we can add a "It's not official&= quot; warning to every page in "Main" namespace. But then we need= Someone to remove that message from pages that don't need it.


What shall we choose?
--047d7bfd0374b5da580532a4400f-- --===============1172392146584948868== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --===============1172392146584948868==--