Received: from localhost ([::1]:60691 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1b0s3l-0007Lz-RL; Thu, 12 May 2016 07:57:53 -0700 Received: from mail-lf0-f51.google.com ([209.85.215.51]:33783) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1b0s3f-0007Lj-J4 for llg-members@lojban.org; Thu, 12 May 2016 07:57:52 -0700 Received: by mail-lf0-f51.google.com with SMTP id y84so73590211lfc.0 for ; Thu, 12 May 2016 07:57:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=1EjandXHy7Ya5zaJk03R92pso30115dhMYBqaGpiR60=; b=FyspWVBovuaQyzhLr1rIZHTIBY2eidrsler8mJDiYZy1hZ4sA0LSv1owiNA+Gtcc07 QwXH5MiaCkBTdD/MVbB8A3aDBeUjoA40wj33sS7DnxodUjnE6oxNllq6y3PvzcsMY7RC +J0i23pLQahG75DubbtArjsZSxt4CPx6qfll126P3DewsVugoD7oHKcxpQn1aN325GZ4 mkWbooAB/hD/PfirMVnK4KIO3hxCT9ZRQ8hUoB3npTqdpIIggljVdlSRlxfkjaJlHsq0 TWATJBTgB4z4DLigD7X+ZDvBJsPYPYfEouTHpetKmWONXjEpkmV0tdEzY19vIgDWxUBA uLlQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=1EjandXHy7Ya5zaJk03R92pso30115dhMYBqaGpiR60=; b=eZQ6FE6pID4CoBOqqmJ9eXaMXXReOaLj2uQuccfApqRKd39Pgvcjkp1r+Z1NTMO19V pkCNv+yKh9R7fjb8vQ0K3phKrrzXmhcGlfWOhdFpAGM2Eop3MvdxWLtUngeAl4nAvbPR Ez9KL3OUq0Wir0jFfWgZ33IYjk0UW+pKXuMrD569cI4YRmDrOZ64VQJftfbivCEQcSXw fNCXfLlfSkRvTeMeU0BlNgIxIOxBOVaq9wh8Aw2TPC+Dli1G2josd7XjcuZV6t8LBxtU dIQ69OPZDwxvHQFc7O4e2vADUaXQs/uqMI/ZJ8a81gS0Os4QZIm9tLs0F9MdEi8na/Hl xkyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FXYDKfLsrOqh4RU2pNZV1Jgh26muLQjL09+rxuPrTiFR7mqxtNvDOLaSNshyvq56TyUUhh8LGg4aQehUw== X-Received: by 10.25.149.84 with SMTP id x81mr3946768lfd.166.1463065060563; Thu, 12 May 2016 07:57:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.199.163 with HTTP; Thu, 12 May 2016 07:57:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <8B3122F0-71E9-42C1-852D-1492D9DC8B52@gmail.com> <5733B5C8.7000902@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 17:57:00 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Violation of copyright X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8687215769550802478==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============8687215769550802478== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11401f3837e2260532a6616d --001a11401f3837e2260532a6616d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2016-05-12 16:40 GMT+03:00 guskant : > 2016-05-12 12:24 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna : > > > > > > 2016-05-12 15:15 GMT+03:00 guskant : > >> > >> > >> Originally, each tiki-based page had clear history of edition on the > >> page itself, and all visitors had access to the information of the > >> creator and editors of the page. It was very helpful for visitors who > >> want to know the responsibility of every part of the pages. I regret > >> that the whole history vanished when the tiki pages were copied to > >> mediawiki, though I understand it was a result of a technical issue. > > > > > > So now we need to tag all the pages, even the tiki ones, right? > > > > No. A tag is required for personal original research pages, not for > information pages like news, lists of lojbanic creations and so on. > I can do that for all pages at once in "Main" namespace. Then you can delete this message from pages you think should noit contain it. > > >> > >> > >> On the other hand, Gleki's original research pages were created on > >> mediawiki from scratch. As we know anonymous visitors cannot view the > >> history of each page, > > > > > > Technically they can: > > https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Lojban&action=history > > > > The button was hidden for anonymous users to prevent cluttering of user > > interface. > > > > I know. That fact does not contradict my view that anonymous visitors > cannot view the history of each page, because they don't have the link > to the history. > > > > >> > >> Gleki could be more carful to include > >> information about the responsibility on each page of his original > >> research, but he didn't. > > > > > > I did. Pages imported from the tiki were initially marked as "jbocre: " > in > > their name. It was planned to inject a notice at the top of each page > that > > it's not official but since nobody supported that I renamed them back to > > no-prefix ones. > > > > No, you seem to misunderstand. I meant Gleki did not include > information about the responsibility on each page of Gleki's original > research, not tiki's. > Yes, these question were not solved because nobody cared. > > > > > So > > 1. Either we can show "History" button back. > > 2. Or we can add a "It's not official" warning to every page in "Main" > > namespace. But then we need Someone to remove that message from pages > that > > don't need it. > > > > 1 is better than the current state, but is not a full solution of the > problem because the pages copied from tiki have lost the whole history > information. > 2 is not required as I explained above. I require a tag for only > personal original research, not for news or information of lojbanic > creations. > What about tiki pages? Should original research there be marked? > > 2016-05-12 12:55 GMT+00:00 John Cowan : > > guskant scripsit: > > > >> As for the particular case of "Le Petit Prince", the copyright has > >> expired in most countries in the world except France, where a special > >> law is applied to "morts pour la France", and the US, where copyright > >> renewal is applied. I don't know if "le cmalu noltru" page on the > >> official website must reject access from those two countries, or must > >> move the content to a server in another country. > > > > This is becoming absurd. Copyright is a civil matter when there is no > > commercial advantage, and the estate surely has better things to do > > than (pur)sue people for making translations into an obscure language > > that almost no one speaks and giving them away for free. On the > > other hand, we should not approach the estate for permission, because > > author's estates almost always say "No" (in my experience) if there > > is no money in it. The same applies to the agents of living authors. > > > > We should leave things as they are. > > > > I agree that such a copyright matter is becoming absurd, though I > don't think the official body should take any responsibility on > people's creative works including translations in any case. Putting > the works by people on the official website may bring any trouble to > the official body. It would be safer to move the creative works to > somewhere out of the official website. > > mi'e la guskant > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > --001a11401f3837e2260532a6616d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2016-05-12 16:40 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com><= /span>:
2016-05-12 12:24= GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>:
>
>
> 2016-05-12 15:15 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> Originally, each tiki-based page had clear= history of edition on the
>> page itself, and all visitors had access to the information of the=
>> creator and editors of the page. It was very helpful for visitors = who
>> want to know the responsibility of every part of the pages. I regr= et
>> that the whole history vanished when the tiki pages were copied to=
>> mediawiki, though I understand it was a result of a technical issu= e.
>
>
> So now we need to tag all the pages, even the tiki ones, right?
>

No. A tag is required for personal original research pages, not for<= br> information pages like news, lists of lojbanic creations and so on.

I can do that for all pages at once in "M= ain" namespace. Then you can delete this message from pages you think = should noit contain it.

>>
>>
>> On the other hand, Gleki's original research pages were create= d on
>> mediawiki from scratch. As we know anonymous visitors cannot view = the
>> history of each page,
>
>
> Technically they can:
> https://mw.lojban.org/inde= x.php?title=3DLojban&action=3Dhistory
>
> The button was hidden for anonymous users to prevent cluttering of use= r
> interface.
>

I know. That fact does not contradict my view that anonymous visitor= s
cannot view the history of each page, because they don't have the link<= br> to the history.

>
>>
>> Gleki could be more carful to include
>> information about the responsibility on each page of his original<= br> >> research, but he didn't.
>
>
> I did. Pages imported from the tiki were initially marked as "jbo= cre: " in
> their name. It was planned to inject a notice at the top of each page = that
> it's not official but since nobody supported that I renamed them b= ack to
> no-prefix ones.
>

No, you seem to misunderstand. I meant Gleki did not include
information about the responsibility on each page of Gleki's original research, not tiki's.

Yes, these qu= estion were not solved because nobody cared.
=C2=A0

>
> So
> 1. Either we can show "History" button back.
> 2. Or we can add a "It's not official" warning to every = page in "Main"
> namespace. But then we need Someone to remove that message from pages = that
> don't need it.
>

1 is better than the current state, but is not a full solution of th= e
problem because the pages copied from tiki have lost the whole history
information.
2 is not required as I explained above. I require a tag for only
personal original research, not for news or information of lojbanic
creations.

What about tiki pages? Shoul= d original research there be marked?



2016-05-12 12:55 GMT+00:00 John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org>:
> guskant scripsit:
>
>> As for the particular case of "Le Pet= it Prince", the copyright has
>> expired in most countries in the world except France, where a spec= ial
>> law is applied to "morts pour la France", and the US, wh= ere copyright
>> renewal is applied. I don't know if "le cmalu noltru"= ; page on the
>> official website must reject access from those two countries, or m= ust
>> move the content to a server in another country.
>
> This is becoming absurd.=C2=A0 Copyright is a = civil matter when there is no
> commercial advantage, and the estate surely has better things to do > than (pur)sue people for making translations into an obscure language<= br> > that almost no one speaks and giving them away for free.=C2=A0 On the<= br> > other hand, we should not approach the estate for permission, because<= br> > author's estates almost always say "No" (in my experienc= e) if there
> is no money in it.=C2=A0 The same applies to the agents of living auth= ors.
>
> We should leave things as they are.
>

I agree that such a copyright matter is becoming absurd, though I don't think the official body should take any responsibility on
people's creative works including translations in any case. Putting
the works by people on the official website may bring any trouble to
the official body. It would be safer to move the creative works to
somewhere out of the official website.

mi'e la guskant

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-membe= rs

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