Received: from localhost ([::1]:49427 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YaQYT-0003El-4t; Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:15:45 -0700 Received: from mail-qg0-f49.google.com ([209.85.192.49]:33688) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YaQYM-0003Ec-Te for llg-members@lojban.org; Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:15:43 -0700 Received: by qgfa8 with SMTP id a8so201005509qgf.0 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:15:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type; bh=aRNDrhzXS86IvYTKtUrJBH8P9yEEp/h0o2ll4l6JpiQ=; b=Me39/d9admo0wZCYcOEGDt9jtM4lg0zkkh7wXD62Rvp2mrmQsWTcy1RPDdOtoMmqK0 8ESNsi9UhWWaYuRvfqgvUKCTn8WfdVZCY09+7LV/8nei8Ei+skA2+n0QmS3XtRG7hiie 5R6/0IqB/XCoFmpMvD93uCVeivFb9zSKXKs7aSklIk251HBl4HqOnT1TLlc8crQWRjbC Vwkitlw7yg9JSA890iJ85o6mSVTKnX0Bs6DW4fbgMxMn/i8XjKEVPbNODa+9t1Ho05gd 1Z2siW3kqh1AbUqbOluDQFGNu1ZCDIrGID4LX1tHMre4B9HdQL9hcijHv00rKIWEB4r1 62Yw== X-Received: by 10.140.94.108 with SMTP id f99mr6132082qge.38.1427210112497; Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2607:f470:6:400d:1400::] ([2607:f470:6:400d:990d:d587:e52:135]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id v76sm2888232qge.18.2015.03.24.08.15.10 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 11:15:10 -0400 From: Alex Burka To: llg-members@lojban.org Message-ID: <4046BE15A3F841D0B0446C1AB1208B1D@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <54D471BB.2070605@lojban.org> <54D66BA8.5040607@lojban.org> <08041A2E-FC72-4E80-AAB4-468A1A3C4DB4@gmail.com> <54DA533B.2090803@lojban.org> <5A14A249-2461-4CA7-8CBA-4E27840BB4F3@gmail.com> X-Mailer: sparrow 1.6.4 (build 1178) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Motion: BPFK Reauthorization (amendment) X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8556949026378682867==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============8556949026378682867== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="55117f7e_2e534a82_14c" --55117f7e_2e534a82_14c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Monday, March 23, 2015 at 6:10 PM, DerSaidin wrote: > Sorry I'm late on this thread: > > BPFK is authorized to propose standards for the lojban language... Standard documents may be reported to an Annual Meeting or Special Meeting of the membership for ratification by a two-thirds majority of the general membership. > > 1) To clarify, "the general membership" refers to the members of the LLG, not the members of the BPFK? The meetings mentioned are meetings of the LLG? > Yes. > > 2) If the BPFK's work must be accepted by the LLG, will the LLG now issue any statements/guidance on what changes it would accept and what changes it would not accept? > This would help avoid the possibility of the BPFK doing some work, the LLG rejecting it, and the BPFK loosing enthusiasm and momentum. > > > Good question. That might be nice... but I think it will end up being mostly a formality. Right now, notably, all the BPFK members are also LLG members (though we should strive to change that, ideally recruiting some more BPFK members from outside the glijbopre community). > > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:01 PM, Riley Martinez-Lynch wrote: > > lojbab: > > > > > Since BPFK does exist, and is being renewed rather than newly created, it has a set of members, even if it isn't entirely clear who is in the set. > > > > selpahi: > > > > > For this I would like to suggest that upon formation of the new BPFK, all previous/current members are removed, so the BPFK starts with an empty set of members. Then, everyone who is interested in becoming a member can speak up and will be able to become a member (with or without having to meet certain criteria, depending on what we are going to decide). This has the advantage of knowing who is actually a member, which might come in handy if there are going to be votes, for instance. > > > > lojbab: > > > > > The only reasons I see to have some more rules on who is a member are ... the immense and more or less exclusive power that is being granted to BPFK to propose/produce language standards > > > > I agree that there is a sense that BPFK may have members, but that the extent of membership is unclear. I also agree this is problematic from a procedural perspective, as selpahi describes, and because of the powers delegated to BPFK, as described by lojbab. > > > > To address these concerns, as well as to resolve any doubt about the power of the chair to appoint members and/or determine procedures for membership in the committee, I propose the following amendment: > > > > -- > > > The chair is authorized to appoint members of BPFK who may or may not also be members of LLG, to establish expectations for the participation of members in committee work, to remove members who are unable or fail to meet the expectations for participation, and to determine regular procedures by which parties may be added or removed as members of the committee. > > > At the time of the adoption of this policy, and at any time that a chair is elected by the membership of LLG without having been nominated to that election by BPFK, any membership in BPFK will be deemed to lapse and any membership-related procedure established within the committee will be deemed to expire. The appointment of an interim chair will not be held to cause any membership in BPFK to lapse, or to have any effect upon BPFK membership procedures. > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > I have attached the text of the motion as it would be amended below. > > > > I'd like to respond to some of the other issues raised, but will do so in a separate message. > > > > Thanks, > > > > --Riley > > > > ---- > > > > Motion: BPFK REAUTHORIZATION (as amended) > > LLG hereby recommissions BPFK (a.k.a. "banpla fuzykamni", "baupla fuzykamni", "byfy") as a standing committee with the charge of improving and maintaining formal descriptions of Lojban, elaborating undocumented and under-documented language features, resolving inconsistencies and errors in existing documentation, and responding to issues that arise in usage. > > BPFK is expressly empowered to determine its own decision-making process and pursue its own agenda within the scope of its charge as specified in this charter. BPFK is authorized to propose standards for the lojban language which may include, but are not limited to, lists of words, definitions in various languages, human or mechanical specifications of the grammar, and instructional or reference texts. BPFK may develop standards documents or recognize documents which have been developed by other bodies or individuals. Standard documents may be reported to an Annual Meeting or Special Meeting of the membership for ratification by a two-thirds majority of the general membership. Once ratified, these may be described as "official standards" of LLG. When an Annual Meeting or Special Meeting of the membership is not in session, BPFK may seek Board approval of standards, which upon such approval, may be described as "interim standards". Upon adoption of this policy, the Annual Meeting of LLG membership will hold an election for the office of chair of BPFK. Henceforth, BPFK may, in its annual report to the membership, nominate a candidate to serve a subsequent term as chair. If such a candidate is reported, LLG membership will hold a vote of confidence requiring a simple majority to confirm the nomination. If no candidate is nominated by BPFK, or if the nominated candidate is not confirmed by the membership, an open election will be held by LLG membership. At no time will membership in LLG or BPFK be considered a requirement for the position of chair of BPFK. The natural term of the office of chair of BPFK will begin at the time of the confirmation or election at the Annual Meeting and extend to the confirmation or election of a chair at the subsequent Annual Meeting, or to the adjournment of that meeting if no chair is elected or confirmed. Should the chair become vacant for any reason while an Annual Meeting or Special Meeting of the membership is not in session, the Board may ask the committee to nominate an interim chair to serve the balance of the term. Should the committee fail to forward a nominee, or should more than one nominee be forwarded, the Board reserves the discretion to appoint an interim chair. In the case that the Annual Meeting of LLG membership fails to confirm or elect a chair, the committee will be considered suspended until such a time as an interim chair is appointed by the Board, or until the election of a new chair at a subsequent Annual Meeting or Special Meeting of the membership. > > The chair is authorized to appoint members of BPFK who may or may not also be members of LLG, to establish expectations for the participation of members in committee work, to remove members who are unable or fail to meet the expectations for participation, and to determine regular procedures by which parties may be added or removed as members of the committee. > > At the time of the adoption of this policy, and at any time that a chair is elected by the membership of LLG without having been nominated to that election by BPFK, any membership in BPFK will be deemed to lapse and any membership-related procedure established within the committee will be deemed to expire. The appointment of an interim chair will not be held to cause any membership in BPFK to lapse, or to have any effect upon BPFK membership procedures. > > > > > > In the case that policies specified in this document are found to contradict policies previously established by LLG or its Board of Directors, the policies in this document should be held to supplant the previous policies. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Llg-members mailing list > > Llg-members@lojban.org (mailto:Llg-members@lojban.org) > > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org (mailto:Llg-members@lojban.org) > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --55117f7e_2e534a82_14c Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline

=20

On Monday, March 23, 2= 015 at 6:10 PM, DerSaidin wrote:

Sorry I'm la=
te on this thread:
BP=46K is authorized to p=
ropose standards for the lojban language...

Standard documents may be reported to an Annual Meeting or Special Meetin=
g of the membership for ratification by a two-thirds majority of the gene=
ral membership.

1) To clarify, =22=
the general membership=22 refers to the members of the LLG, not the membe=
rs of the BP=46K=3F The meetings mentioned are meetings of the LLG=3F

= Yes. 
2) If the BP=46K's work m=
ust be accepted by the LLG, will the LLG now issue any statements/guidanc=
e on what changes it would accept and what changes it would not accept=3F=

This would help avoid the possibility of the BP=46K doin=
g some work, the LLG rejecting it, and the BP=46K loosing enthusiasm and =
momentum.
Good que= stion. That might be nice... but I think it will end up being mostly a fo= rmality. Right now, notably, all the BP=46K members are also LLG members = (though we should strive to change that, ideally recruiting some more BP=46= K members from outside the glijbopre community).

On Wed, =46eb 1= 1, 2015 at 11:01 PM, Riley Martinez-Lynch <shunpiker= =40gmail.com> wrote:
=
lojbab:

=
Since BP=46K does exist, and is being = renewed rather than newly created, it has a set of members, even if it is= n't entirely clear who is in the set.

se= lpahi:

=46or this I = would like to suggest that upon formation of the new BP=46K, all previous= /current members are removed, so the BP=46K starts with an empty set of m= embers. Then, everyone who is interested in becoming a member can speak u= p and will be able to become a member (with or without having to meet cer= tain criteria, depending on what we are going to decide). This has the ad= vantage of knowing who is actually a member, which might come in handy if= there are going to be votes, for instance.
lojbab:

The only reasons I see to have some more rules on who is a member are = ... the immense and more or less exclusive power that is being grant= ed to BP=46K to propose/produce language standards

I agree that there is a sense that BP=46K may have member= s, but that the extent of membership is unclear. I also agree this is pro= blematic from a procedural perspective, as selpahi describes, and because= of the powers delegated to BP=46K, as described by lojbab.
To address these concerns, as well as to resolve any doubt ab= out the power of the chair to appoint members and/or determine procedures= for membership in the committee, I propose the following amendment:=

--
The chair is authorized to appoint me=
mbers of BP=46K who may or may not also be members of LLG, to establ=
ish expectations for the participation of members in committee work, to r=
emove members who are unable or fail to meet the expectations for partici=
pation, and to determine regular procedures by which parties may be added=
 or removed as members of the committee.
At the time of the adoption of this policy, and at any time =
that a chair is elected by the membership of LLG without having been=
 nominated to that election by BP=46K, any membership in BP=46K will be d=
eemed to lapse and any membership-related procedure established within th=
e committee will be deemed to expire. The appointment of an interim chair=
 will not be held to cause any membership in BP=46K to lapse, or to have =
any effect upon BP=46K membership procedures.
--

I have attached the text of the = motion as it would be amended below.

I'd like to= respond to some of the other issues raised, but will do so in a separate= message.

Thanks,

--Ril= ey

----

Motion: BP=46K REAUTHORIZATION (as amended)
LLG hereby recommissions BP=46K (a.k.a. =22banpla=
 fuzykamni=22, =22baupla fuzykamni=22, =22byfy=22) as a standing committe=
e with the charge of improving and maintaining formal descriptions of Loj=
ban, elaborating undocumented and under-documented language features, res=
olving inconsistencies and errors in existing documentation, and respondi=
ng to issues that arise in usage.
BP=46K is expressly empowered to determine its own decision-making =
process and pursue its own agenda within the scope of its charge as speci=
fied in this charter.

BP=46K is authorized to propose standards for the lojban language which m=
ay include, but are not limited to, lists of words, definitions in variou=
s languages, human or mechanical specifications of the grammar, and instr=
uctional or reference texts. BP=46K may develop standards documents or re=
cognize documents which have been developed by other bodies or individual=
s.

Standard documents may be reported to an Annual Meeting or Special Meetin=
g of the membership for ratification by a two-thirds majority of the gene=
ral membership. Once ratified, these may be described as =22official stan=
dards=22 of LLG. When an Annual Meeting or Special Meeting of the members=
hip is not in session, BP=46K may seek Board approval of standards, which=
 upon such approval, may be described as =22interim standards=22.

Upon adoption of this policy, the Annual Meeting of LLG membership will h=
old an election for the office of chair of BP=46K. Henceforth, BP=46K may=
, in its annual report to the membership, nominate a candidate to serve a=
 subsequent term as chair. If such a candidate is reported, LLG membershi=
p will hold a vote of confidence requiring a simple majority to confirm t=
he nomination. If no candidate is nominated by BP=46K, or if the nominate=
d candidate is not confirmed by the membership, an open election will be =
held by LLG membership. At no time will membership in LLG or BP=46K be co=
nsidered a requirement for the position of chair of BP=46K.

The natural term of the office of chair of BP=46K will begin at the time =
of the confirmation or election at the Annual Meeting and extend to the c=
onfirmation or election of a chair at the subsequent Annual Meeting, or t=
o the adjournment of that meeting if no chair is elected or confirmed. Sh=
ould the chair become vacant for any reason while an Annual Meeting or Sp=
ecial Meeting of the membership is not in session, the Board may ask the =
committee to nominate an interim chair to serve the balance of the term. =
Should the committee fail to forward a nominee, or should more than one n=
ominee be forwarded, the Board reserves the discretion to appoint an inte=
rim chair.

In the case that the Annual Meeting of LLG membership fails to confirm or=
 elect a chair, the committee will be considered suspended until such a t=
ime as an interim chair is appointed by the Board, or until the election =
of a new chair at a subsequent Annual Meeting or Special Meeting of the m=
embership.
The chair =
is authorized to appoint members of BP=46K who may or may not also b=
e members of LLG, to establish expectations for the participation of memb=
ers in committee work, to remove members who are unable or fail to meet t=
he expectations for participation, and to determine regular procedures by=
 which parties may be added or removed as members of the committee.
=

At the time of the adoption of th=
is policy, and at any time that a chair is elected by the membership=
 of LLG without having been nominated to that election by BP=46K, any mem=
bership in BP=46K will be deemed to lapse and any membership-related proc=
edure established within the committee will be deemed to expire. The appo=
intment of an interim chair will not be held to cause any membership in B=
P=46K to lapse, or to have any effect upon BP=46K membership procedures.<=
/pre>
In the case that=
 policies specified in this document are found to contradict policies pre=
viously established by LLG or its Board of Directors, the policies in thi=
s document should be held to supplant the previous policies.
<= br>=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
= Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members=40lojban.org<= /a>
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members


 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20

--55117f7e_2e534a82_14c-- --===============8556949026378682867== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --===============8556949026378682867==--