Received: from localhost ([::1]:48550 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YgeGi-0008R9-R1; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:07:08 -0700 Received: from mail-wi0-f180.google.com ([209.85.212.180]:36787) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YgeGe-0008Qw-D4 for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:07:06 -0700 Received: by wizk4 with SMTP id k4so7218250wiz.1 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:06:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=vGrZ/LxwpvCRflyJvEk4A4PCp0I7yU+kaQZ9+QxQPdg=; b=bwegBC2ccxd/LgKYAMSMBrTLetiyf1co1Z1cgU38sqIGDoi5kZJcYO7ClPRHvhJEgU kJmwfiA+kIec9nkXw87hCOa+W57kG0Uk5ODE2s2ZS3atE3f0Xz2PO4PSGhkPTwMmx+1/ 33APOdMVsUBdcQ79cIVhtaRklUljYFnJ5clw9V9efPzAL8PkOfVrNrs4maNYPPMPG/rX v+QhISIgxuXYqsr8ZRkQTqW9Vy95VY6SSsL7VLJh1mQ5Ei1Fp1Qz63z7evEQS7hyd0Wg 34ObfHkOtINHi7rUQ11UhMSlj/Q48jZm01gHsMXssXvlyjZL8XL7lXZSrwGmi62LxoS1 0pkQ== X-Received: by 10.194.221.1 with SMTP id qa1mr3120750wjc.138.1428692816918; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:06:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.240.197 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:06:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 22:06:36 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Detailed Proposal of a Project Manager X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4388221947860063890==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============4388221947860063890== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3a956d87d600513637706 --001a11c3a956d87d600513637706 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 To clarify: I'm waiting for an opinion from Lojbab. I won't vote until Lojbab says anything on this topic. 2015-04-10 20:57 GMT+03:00 Craig Daniel : > The Board can. I'm also fairly sure the general membership is empowered to > instruct such things to happen - but if the money isn't there to spend, > that's an unwise choice. > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 1:49 PM Gleki Arxokuna > wrote: > >> Who can take the responsibility to spend LLG's money for given projects? >> Maybe la .lojbab. can. >> Anyway, we indeed don't know what problems Lojban and Lojbanistan has so >> such a position may be important at least during a limited time. In a few >> months we can decide if it benefited the language and the community. >> >> Compare to other possible proposals: >> 1. Use money to advertise Lojban. I'd be completely against it since >> there isn't much to advertise (most advertisable things like books need >> first to be updated or finalized). >> 2. Use money to support software projects. We don' t know what software >> projects are necessary in the first place. Well, I know what projects are >> important for me but I'm working on them myself. >> >> Well, still I think that spending money on Jbovlaste 2.0 might be >> desirable. Although... again we don't have precise specifications of what >> needs to be implemented in it. So yes, a project manager position might be >> fine. >> >> >> 2015-04-08 23:42 GMT+03:00 Ali Sajid Imami : >> >>> I don't have the details on how much we make. I would like to see those >>> numbers and then we can come to an agreeable amount that can be paid. I >>> will also do a bit more digging into the time calculations. I may have >>> mixed up my limiters. My financial side is a bit... weak. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Ali Sajid Imami >>> CTO >>> Khabaristan Times >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:38 AM, And Rosta wrote: >>> >>>> LLG doesn't generate anything close to $250 per week, which is what it >>>> would take to pay the contractor for 25 hours per week at $10 per hour on >>>> an ongoing basis. Maybe instead we should work out what LLG could afford, >>>> which is, I take it, an amount no greater than the average weekly profit >>>> generated from CLL sales. What is the average weekly proxy from CLL sales? >>>> Do we know? I'm guessing not much more than $10? That would pay for an hour >>>> a week from the contractor. Would that be enough to accomplish anything >>>> useful? >>>> >>>> Had you thought the financial side of things through, Ali? Maybe I'm >>>> missing something -- certainly my reckoning is not based on any solid >>>> figures. >>>> >>>> And >>>> On 7 Apr 2015 18:46, "Ali Sajid Imami" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I honestly do not have an empirical basis for this, but the 25 hours I >>>>> suggested was based on the current and projected social media activity, and >>>>> the volume of chat in #lojban. I think 25 hours is probably the ceiling. >>>>> >>>>> Also, I had the US minimum wage in mind more than PK minimum wage. The >>>>> reasoning being the massive conversion gap: 1 USD is approximately 100 PKR. >>>>> So a US minimum wage ish thing, between $8 to $10 an hour. We need a >>>>> project manager, not a sweatshop worker. This would arguably be expensive >>>>> but we can honestly check the efficacy and see if it's worth it. Just as a >>>>> comparison, a laborer who has a job here makes more than $12.50. Somewhat >>>>> around $15. >>>>> >>>>> I think we can do a discussion about the hour estimation, and sign >>>>> this person on for a 3 month trial. If they work out, we sign them on for 9 >>>>> more months. And from that point on, we get the contract annually. >>>>> >>>>> Also, to answer your question, And, yes. The person is very quick in >>>>> picking up languages and would learn it in a matter of weeks if the >>>>> conversation keeps happening around her. As in, she doesn't know lojban yet >>>>> but is aware of the principles and is learning it slowly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Ali Sajid Imami >>>>> CTO >>>>> Khabaristan Times >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 10:13 PM, And Rosta >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Ali Sajid Imami < >>>>>> ali.sajid.imami@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I already have a candidate in mind, someone I implicitly trust and >>>>>>> have worked with in similar situations. The willingness will be a huge >>>>>>> plus, although not necessarily a requirement. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you mean that your candidate would be willing to work in Lojban >>>>>> when their interlocutors prefer it? That's a big bonus. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd calculate the position to be about 25 hours a week. With about >>>>>>> 100 hours a month should be fair. I think we can pay them off LLGs current >>>>>>> account, as a contractor. I know LLG can't have an employee but I think we >>>>>>> are allowed contractors. Something slightly above minimum wage for a person >>>>>>> in Pakistan would be more than enough for this position. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Is there really so much work of the sort you described, 1200 hours >>>>>> per year? I'd have guesstimated 200--400 hours per year, but with very >>>>>> little empirical basis for that. >>>>>> >>>>>> My googling suggests that the full-time PK minimum wage is $110 (USD) >>>>>> per month. On first-world-ish assumptions of a 37 hour week and a month of >>>>>> paid holiday, that's 147 hours per month. So the cost of 1200 hrs per year >>>>>> would be c $75 per month ($900 a year), and the cost of 200--400 hrs per >>>>>> year would be c $12.50--$25 per month ($150--$300 a year). Do those sums >>>>>> match what you had in mind? >>>>>> >>>>>> If so, what about, say, a trial, initially for a year, for $12.50 a >>>>>> month for an average of 16.7 hours a month? Make any necessary adjustments >>>>>> so that the rate of pay is not arseholey or unconscionably exploitative. If >>>>>> it's a roaring success and the funds are available, then it could be >>>>>> increased. >>>>>> >>>>>> --And. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --001a11c3a956d87d600513637706 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To clarify: I'm waiting for an opinion from Lojbab. I = won't vote until Lojbab says anything on this topic.

2015-04-10 20:57 GMT+03:00 Cra= ig Daniel <craigbdaniel@gmail.com>:
The Board can. I'm also fairly sure the= general membership is empowered to instruct such things to happen - but if= the money isn't there to spend, that's an unwise choice.
=

On F= ri, Apr 10, 2015 at 1:49 PM Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrot= e:
Who can take the resp= onsibility to spend LLG's money for given projects?
Maybe la .lojbab= . can.
Anyway, we indeed don't know what problems Lojban and Lojban= istan has so such a position may be important at least during a limited tim= e. In a few months we can decide if it benefited the language and the commu= nity.

Compare to other possible proposals:
1. U= se money to advertise Lojban. I'd be completely against it since there = isn't much to advertise (most advertisable things like books need first= to be updated or finalized).
2. Use money to support software projects.= We don' t know what software projects are necessary in the first place= . Well, I know what projects are important for me but I'm working on th= em myself.

Well, still I think that spending money on Jbovlaste 2.0 = might be desirable. Although... again we don't have precise specificati= ons of what needs to be implemented in it. So yes, a project manager positi= on might be fine.


=
2015-04-08 23:42 GMT+03:00 Ali Sajid Imami <ali.sajid.imami@gmail.com>:
I don't have the details on how much we make.= I would like to see those numbers and then we can come to an agreeable amo= unt that can be paid. I will also do a bit more digging into the time calcu= lations. I may have mixed up my limiters. My financial side is a bit... wea= k.

=


Regard= s,
Ali Sajid Imami
CTO
<= /div>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:38= AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:

LLG doesn't generate anything close = to $250 per week, which is what it would take to pay the contractor for 25 = hours per week at $10 per hour on an ongoing basis. Maybe instead we should= work out what LLG could afford, which is, I take it, an amount no greater = than the average weekly profit generated from CLL sales. What is the averag= e weekly proxy from CLL sales? Do we know? I'm guessing not much more t= han $10? That would pay for an hour a week from the contractor. Would that = be enough to accomplish anything useful?

Had you thought the financial side of things through, Ali? M= aybe I'm missing something -- certainly my reckoning is not based on an= y solid figures.

And

On 7 Apr 2015 18:46, "Ali Sajid Imami"= <ali.saj= id.imami@gmail.com> wrote:
I honestly do not have an empirical basis= for this, but the 25 hours I suggested was based on the current and projec= ted social media activity, and the volume of chat in #lojban. I think 25 ho= urs is probably the ceiling.

Also, I had the US minimum wage in mind= more than PK minimum wage. The reasoning being the massive conversion gap:= 1 USD is approximately 100 PKR. So a US minimum wage ish thing, between $8= to $10 an hour. We need a project manager, not a sweatshop worker. This wo= uld arguably be expensive but we can honestly check the efficacy and see if= it's worth it. Just as a comparison, a laborer who has a job here make= s more than $12.50. Somewhat around $15.

I think we can do a discuss= ion about the hour estimation, and sign this person on for a 3 month trial.= If they work out, we sign them on for 9 more months. And from that point o= n, we get the contract annually.

Also, to answer your question, And,= yes. The person is very quick in picking up languages and would learn it i= n a matter of weeks if the conversation keeps happening around her. As in, = she doesn't know lojban yet but is aware of the principles and is learn= ing it slowly.



= Regards,
Ali Sajid Imami
CTO
<= /div>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 10:13 PM, And Rosta <= span dir=3D"ltr"><and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:


On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Ali Sajid Imami <ali= .sajid.imami@gmail.com> wrote:
= I already have a candidate in mind, someone I implicitly trust and have wor= ked with in similar situations. The willingness will be a huge plus, althou= gh not necessarily a requirement.

Do you mean that your candidate would be willing to work in L= ojban when their interlocutors prefer it? That's a big bonus.

=C2=A0

I'd = calculate the position to be about 25 hours a week. With about 100 hours a = month should be fair. I think we can pay them off LLGs current account, as = a contractor. I know LLG can't have an employee but I think we are allo= wed contractors. Something slightly above minimum wage for a person in Paki= stan would be more than enough for this position.=C2=A0

Is there really so much work of the sort yo= u described, 1200 hours per year? I'd have guesstimated 200--400 hours = per year, but with very little empirical basis for that.

My googling suggests that the full-time PK minimum wage is $110 (USD= ) per month. On first-world-ish assumptions of a 37 hour week and a month o= f paid holiday, that's 147 hours per month. So the cost of 1200 hrs per= year would be c $75 per month ($900 a year), and the cost of 200--400 hrs = per year would be c $12.50--$25 per month ($150--$300 a year). Do those sum= s match what you had in mind?=C2=A0

If so, what ab= out, say, a trial, initially for a year, for $12.50 a month for an average = of 16.7 hours a month? Make any necessary adjustments so that the rate of p= ay is not arseholey or unconscionably exploitative. If it's a roaring s= uccess and the funds are available, then it could be increased.
=

--And.

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members


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