Received: from localhost ([::1]:48624 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Ygefm-0000jn-NK; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:33:02 -0700 Received: from mail-qk0-f173.google.com ([209.85.220.173]:35518) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Ygefj-0000jZ-2s for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:33:01 -0700 Received: by qkhg7 with SMTP id g7so42694239qkh.2 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:32:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Kayivkxlpmia1xa9udBN5oOcrQ2I0mcZjqkMwyYpZs8=; b=HV4WKgkDGFb/ABHPPv0K7xnqpHeWD/xdq9Vacq+Bnk1xFuoOd6ckHkH2yDHhGVJD7U yS0IY8ja7ImPdyDxl7OBaP/0lYh8d1BEIJkewEULiLr7b4NrDUDpL3Za2SaqCwmqRLpN YwCcrabr+HNH2Fl51MTXIoLpJ0TZ/20vD3diItNHVCuwOhjTIuq+qpkR4XEDkCOYq5j8 S90kTTljmz5B9fq91zUNGZ/9qZ2Rr8/t/1fzuQ12ASB4NrdyLRW+k8HVzUCMPbIBF+rg pN5QXBVzR9BrnasiBj3ZfqBnkFfnVlOm19Ourjev2ydkMK5qUb7m7+XL8XwOSubotrbw mFfA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.195.14 with SMTP id q14mr3987102qha.78.1428694372706; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.86.211 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.86.211 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:32:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 20:32:52 +0100 Message-ID: From: And Rosta To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.7 X-Spam_score_int: -26 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] Detailed Proposal of a Project Manager X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6935053429310602284==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============6935053429310602284== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11426c8893ee2d051363d4ad --001a11426c8893ee2d051363d4ad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 For my part, I'm hoping that someone with access to LLG's accounts can give us an indication of how much LLG could ongoingly afford to spend (on whatever). Can we elect Riley treasurer so that he can get and give us that info? --And. On 10 Apr 2015 20:07, "Gleki Arxokuna" wrote: > To clarify: I'm waiting for an opinion from Lojbab. I won't vote until > Lojbab says anything on this topic. > > 2015-04-10 20:57 GMT+03:00 Craig Daniel : > >> The Board can. I'm also fairly sure the general membership is empowered >> to instruct such things to happen - but if the money isn't there to spend, >> that's an unwise choice. >> >> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 1:49 PM Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Who can take the responsibility to spend LLG's money for given projects? >>> Maybe la .lojbab. can. >>> Anyway, we indeed don't know what problems Lojban and Lojbanistan has so >>> such a position may be important at least during a limited time. In a few >>> months we can decide if it benefited the language and the community. >>> >>> Compare to other possible proposals: >>> 1. Use money to advertise Lojban. I'd be completely against it since >>> there isn't much to advertise (most advertisable things like books need >>> first to be updated or finalized). >>> 2. Use money to support software projects. We don' t know what software >>> projects are necessary in the first place. Well, I know what projects are >>> important for me but I'm working on them myself. >>> >>> Well, still I think that spending money on Jbovlaste 2.0 might be >>> desirable. Although... again we don't have precise specifications of what >>> needs to be implemented in it. So yes, a project manager position might be >>> fine. >>> >>> >>> 2015-04-08 23:42 GMT+03:00 Ali Sajid Imami : >>> >>>> I don't have the details on how much we make. I would like to see those >>>> numbers and then we can come to an agreeable amount that can be paid. I >>>> will also do a bit more digging into the time calculations. I may have >>>> mixed up my limiters. My financial side is a bit... weak. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Ali Sajid Imami >>>> CTO >>>> Khabaristan Times >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:38 AM, And Rosta wrote: >>>> >>>>> LLG doesn't generate anything close to $250 per week, which is what it >>>>> would take to pay the contractor for 25 hours per week at $10 per hour on >>>>> an ongoing basis. Maybe instead we should work out what LLG could afford, >>>>> which is, I take it, an amount no greater than the average weekly profit >>>>> generated from CLL sales. What is the average weekly proxy from CLL sales? >>>>> Do we know? I'm guessing not much more than $10? That would pay for an hour >>>>> a week from the contractor. Would that be enough to accomplish anything >>>>> useful? >>>>> >>>>> Had you thought the financial side of things through, Ali? Maybe I'm >>>>> missing something -- certainly my reckoning is not based on any solid >>>>> figures. >>>>> >>>>> And >>>>> On 7 Apr 2015 18:46, "Ali Sajid Imami" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I honestly do not have an empirical basis for this, but the 25 hours >>>>>> I suggested was based on the current and projected social media activity, >>>>>> and the volume of chat in #lojban. I think 25 hours is probably the ceiling. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, I had the US minimum wage in mind more than PK minimum wage. >>>>>> The reasoning being the massive conversion gap: 1 USD is approximately 100 >>>>>> PKR. So a US minimum wage ish thing, between $8 to $10 an hour. We need a >>>>>> project manager, not a sweatshop worker. This would arguably be expensive >>>>>> but we can honestly check the efficacy and see if it's worth it. Just as a >>>>>> comparison, a laborer who has a job here makes more than $12.50. Somewhat >>>>>> around $15. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think we can do a discussion about the hour estimation, and sign >>>>>> this person on for a 3 month trial. If they work out, we sign them on for 9 >>>>>> more months. And from that point on, we get the contract annually. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, to answer your question, And, yes. The person is very quick in >>>>>> picking up languages and would learn it in a matter of weeks if the >>>>>> conversation keeps happening around her. As in, she doesn't know lojban yet >>>>>> but is aware of the principles and is learning it slowly. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Ali Sajid Imami >>>>>> CTO >>>>>> Khabaristan Times >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 10:13 PM, And Rosta >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Ali Sajid Imami < >>>>>>> ali.sajid.imami@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I already have a candidate in mind, someone I implicitly trust and >>>>>>>> have worked with in similar situations. The willingness will be a huge >>>>>>>> plus, although not necessarily a requirement. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you mean that your candidate would be willing to work in Lojban >>>>>>> when their interlocutors prefer it? That's a big bonus. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'd calculate the position to be about 25 hours a week. With about >>>>>>>> 100 hours a month should be fair. I think we can pay them off LLGs current >>>>>>>> account, as a contractor. I know LLG can't have an employee but I think we >>>>>>>> are allowed contractors. Something slightly above minimum wage for a person >>>>>>>> in Pakistan would be more than enough for this position. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is there really so much work of the sort you described, 1200 hours >>>>>>> per year? I'd have guesstimated 200--400 hours per year, but with very >>>>>>> little empirical basis for that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My googling suggests that the full-time PK minimum wage is $110 >>>>>>> (USD) per month. On first-world-ish assumptions of a 37 hour week and a >>>>>>> month of paid holiday, that's 147 hours per month. So the cost of 1200 hrs >>>>>>> per year would be c $75 per month ($900 a year), and the cost of 200--400 >>>>>>> hrs per year would be c $12.50--$25 per month ($150--$300 a year). Do those >>>>>>> sums match what you had in mind? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If so, what about, say, a trial, initially for a year, for $12.50 a >>>>>>> month for an average of 16.7 hours a month? Make any necessary adjustments >>>>>>> so that the rate of pay is not arseholey or unconscionably exploitative. If >>>>>>> it's a roaring success and the funds are available, then it could be >>>>>>> increased. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --And. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>>>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>>>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Llg-members mailing list >>>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Llg-members mailing list >>> Llg-members@lojban.org >>> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Llg-members mailing list >> Llg-members@lojban.org >> http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --001a11426c8893ee2d051363d4ad Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For my part, I'm hoping that someone with access to LLG&= #39;s accounts can give us an indication of how much LLG could ongoingly af= ford to spend (on whatever).

Can we elect Riley treasurer so that he can get and give us = that info?

--And.

On 10 Apr 2015 20:07, "Gleki Arxokuna"= <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.c= om> wrote:
To clarify: I'm waiting for an opinion from Lojbab. I wo= n't vote until Lojbab says anything on this topic.

2015-04-10 20:57 GMT+03:00 Craig= Daniel <craigbdaniel@gmail.com>:
The Board can. I'm also fairly sure the = general membership is empowered to instruct such things to happen - but if = the money isn't there to spend, that's an unwise choice.
<= div>

On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 1:49 PM Gle= ki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Who can take the responsibility to spend LLG's m= oney for given projects?
Maybe la .lojbab. can.
Anyway, we indeed do= n't know what problems Lojban and Lojbanistan has so such a position ma= y be important at least during a limited time. In a few months we can decid= e if it benefited the language and the community.

= Compare to other possible proposals:
1. Use money to advertise Lojban. I= 'd be completely against it since there isn't much to advertise (mo= st advertisable things like books need first to be updated or finalized).2. Use money to support software projects. We don' t know what softwa= re projects are necessary in the first place. Well, I know what projects ar= e important for me but I'm working on them myself.

Well, still I= think that spending money on Jbovlaste 2.0 might be desirable. Although...= again we don't have precise specifications of what needs to be impleme= nted in it. So yes, a project manager position might be fine.

2015= -04-08 23:42 GMT+03:00 Ali Sajid Imami <ali.sajid.imami@gmail.com<= /a>>:
I don= 't have the details on how much we make. I would like to see those numb= ers and then we can come to an agreeable amount that can be paid. I will al= so do a bit more digging into the time calculations. I may have mixed up my= limiters. My financial side is a bit... weak.


On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:38= AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:

LLG doesn't generate anything close = to $250 per week, which is what it would take to pay the contractor for 25 = hours per week at $10 per hour on an ongoing basis. Maybe instead we should= work out what LLG could afford, which is, I take it, an amount no greater = than the average weekly profit generated from CLL sales. What is the averag= e weekly proxy from CLL sales? Do we know? I'm guessing not much more t= han $10? That would pay for an hour a week from the contractor. Would that = be enough to accomplish anything useful?

Had you thought the financial side of things through, Ali? M= aybe I'm missing something -- certainly my reckoning is not based on an= y solid figures.

And

On 7 Apr 2015 18:46, "Ali Sajid Imami"= <ali.saj= id.imami@gmail.com> wrote:
I honestly do not have an empirical basis= for this, but the 25 hours I suggested was based on the current and projec= ted social media activity, and the volume of chat in #lojban. I think 25 ho= urs is probably the ceiling.

Also, I had the US minimum wage in mind= more than PK minimum wage. The reasoning being the massive conversion gap:= 1 USD is approximately 100 PKR. So a US minimum wage ish thing, between $8= to $10 an hour. We need a project manager, not a sweatshop worker. This wo= uld arguably be expensive but we can honestly check the efficacy and see if= it's worth it. Just as a comparison, a laborer who has a job here make= s more than $12.50. Somewhat around $15.

I think we can do a discuss= ion about the hour estimation, and sign this person on for a 3 month trial.= If they work out, we sign them on for 9 more months. And from that point o= n, we get the contract annually.

Also, to answer your question, And,= yes. The person is very quick in picking up languages and would learn it i= n a matter of weeks if the conversation keeps happening around her. As in, = she doesn't know lojban yet but is aware of the principles and is learn= ing it slowly.



= Regards,
Ali Sajid Imami
CTO
<= /div>

On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 10:13 PM, And Rosta <= span dir=3D"ltr"><and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:


On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Ali Sajid Imami <ali= .sajid.imami@gmail.com> wrote:
= I already have a candidate in mind, someone I implicitly trust and have wor= ked with in similar situations. The willingness will be a huge plus, althou= gh not necessarily a requirement.

Do you mean that your candidate would be willing to work in L= ojban when their interlocutors prefer it? That's a big bonus.

=C2=A0

I'd = calculate the position to be about 25 hours a week. With about 100 hours a = month should be fair. I think we can pay them off LLGs current account, as = a contractor. I know LLG can't have an employee but I think we are allo= wed contractors. Something slightly above minimum wage for a person in Paki= stan would be more than enough for this position.=C2=A0

Is there really so much work of the sort yo= u described, 1200 hours per year? I'd have guesstimated 200--400 hours = per year, but with very little empirical basis for that.

My googling suggests that the full-time PK minimum wage is $110 (USD= ) per month. On first-world-ish assumptions of a 37 hour week and a month o= f paid holiday, that's 147 hours per month. So the cost of 1200 hrs per= year would be c $75 per month ($900 a year), and the cost of 200--400 hrs = per year would be c $12.50--$25 per month ($150--$300 a year). Do those sum= s match what you had in mind?=C2=A0

If so, what ab= out, say, a trial, initially for a year, for $12.50 a month for an average = of 16.7 hours a month? Make any necessary adjustments so that the rate of p= ay is not arseholey or unconscionably exploitative. If it's a roaring s= uccess and the funds are available, then it could be increased.
=

--And.

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members


_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members

--001a11426c8893ee2d051363d4ad-- --===============6935053429310602284== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members --===============6935053429310602284==--