Received: from localhost ([::1]:48345 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Yieqq-0005PD-DV; Thu, 16 Apr 2015 01:08:44 -0700 Received: from mail-wg0-f46.google.com ([74.125.82.46]:34182) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Yieqk-0005Ou-4i for llg-members@lojban.org; Thu, 16 Apr 2015 01:08:42 -0700 Received: by wgso17 with SMTP id o17so72061650wgs.1 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 2015 01:08:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=T0bZneV/X4ktRvHsVJeUjORwxDUuxXqKeiPYuc3HUTk=; b=jLB4wv72aDqIHW3lUaTRpY+cE4Hp6R2Wt6exPDZqjGUm45dh42QsU+IZ7BPvLYwZ/2 XswPBYGELANFmdRGlixvcylhNErqeg8Muac9N1gLDdlt/fgMkv4gDw3PUwwiQSvFAmr6 rALWfJ+vjaXaznGPdCa4q+CVoNu2j6s/+YDKVVqsdjBdVDoSvK4m+KL4ErGccuQNQVsr y15lbjDcVkMi/+af5JbRssrDu9tehCIW+Ljw3HPtJl5B3UkQUFk74HhKvv4BTPzk/kqT gaG1WGMmd6RIMpTxuMDp9eiW4K+IgMqs1JPoCn7uXzY71nj1NxPzEk69+yfI26uP0mLc /LJA== X-Received: by 10.180.74.198 with SMTP id w6mr2795686wiv.69.1429171711256; Thu, 16 Apr 2015 01:08:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.240.197 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Apr 2015 01:08:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5502321A.2050208@lojban.org> <551ADCFF.20709@lojban.org> <552CA608.50200@lojban.org> <552D0CC2.7080502@selpahi.de> <552DA91A.8090207@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 11:08:10 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] New Business: other topics X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8230235409896578390==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============8230235409896578390== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043749a52c2e300513d2f809 --f46d043749a52c2e300513d2f809 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-04-16 10:36 GMT+03:00 And Rosta : > > On 15 Apr 2015 13:09, "Craig Daniel" wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 2:33 AM Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > >> 2015-04-15 5:46 GMT+03:00 guskant : > >>> > >>> I don't at all agree to la gleki's alternate idea that a > >>> non-periodical news feed would be enough. > >> > >> > >> Did I say non-periodical? > >> I meant a website where a committee would publish high-quality papers > with finished solutions (that are of course still can be discussed > further). So it'd rather be a magazine, yes. I just don't know how it could > be implemented technically. Maybe just add wiki pages that can't be edited > by non-admins, with links to mailing list threads where they can be further > discussed, with tags (categories) so that they can be easily sorted out, > with "Share" links to social networks. Creating physical paper issues out > of them wouldn't be a serious problem of course. > > > > > > So, a related thought: the LLG's mission, according to the bylaws, is > broader than just Lojban. Engelang topics byond the language with which we > are primarily associated, and relevant studies of "the relationships > between language, thought, and human culture" are very much on topic for > us. And part of our stated purpose is also "to conduct and support > experimental and scholarly research in these fields [various social > sciences] as they may bear upon the problems of artificial language > development; to communicate with and to educate interested persons and > organizations about these activities; to devise and develop means and > instruments needed for these activities; and to accumulate and publish the > results of such studies and developments." > > > > Should we be publishing a journal? > > No. There isn't enough potentially available good-quality content, and > nowadays there isn't a shortage of publication outlets. > > > If not, what else could we do to better support such research? > > I tend to think that that bit of LLG's mission is actually not compatible > with the collective will of the Lojban community, and that the latter > should overrule the former. However, if the former was to be supported then > it should take the form of developing a loglang design that is as fit for > purpose as possible: that's the best combination of what's useful to > linguistics, what's unavailable elsewhere, and what is an area where LLG > has a good concentration of expertise and experience. But even then, I'm > not sure what LLG could concretely do, apart from maybe providing a focus > and gravitational centre for such an enterprise. And to repeat my initial > point, I think there'd be a lot of hostility in the community to LLG > supporting what many would perceive as a rival to Lojban. > What has been proposed by far were indeed rivals to Lojban not better than it. Although of course one might say "I don't like phonotactics" or "I don't like the abundance of sound {x} in Lojban". Creating a Lojban2NewLoglang converter would be trivial as I showed with Lojban <=> TLI Loglan converter. The point is that all rival projects die. They never accumulate enough mass to continue to be alive. This even happened to TLI Loglan itself. What is more many people can't even finish learning even basic gismu places in gimste and finish learning the core of ma'oste not or not only because of their weird English definitions but also due to the lack of usage examples. But even if this has been partially solved by La Bangu dictionary what is more that the majority of humanity isn't going to learn not even Lojban or any other conlang but even the most important natlangs or programming languages. So it's hard to learn Lojban but it's much less likely that those people will handle one more loglang. Good news is that many features proposed in past can be easily integrated into Lojban itself. Which Lojbab showed himself initially when adding features from Laadan. --And. > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --f46d043749a52c2e300513d2f809 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-04-16 10:36 GMT+03:00 And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>:


On 15 Apr 2015 13:09, "Craig Daniel" <craigbdaniel@gmail.com> wrote: >
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 2:33 AM Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com= > wrote:
>>
>>
>> 2015-04-15 5:46 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> I don't at all agree to la gleki's alternate idea that= a
>>> non-periodical news feed would be enough.
>>
>>
>> Did I say non-periodical?
>> I meant a website where a committee would publish high-quality pap= ers with finished solutions (that are of course still can be discussed furt= her). So it'd rather be a magazine, yes. I just don't know how it c= ould be implemented technically. Maybe just add wiki pages that can't b= e edited by non-admins, with links to mailing list threads where they can b= e further discussed, with tags (categories) so that they can be easily sort= ed out, with "Share" links to social networks. Creating physical = paper issues out of them wouldn't be a serious problem of course.
>
>
> So, a related thought: the LLG's mission, according to the bylaws,= is broader than just Lojban. Engelang topics byond the language with which= we are primarily associated, and relevant studies of "the relationshi= ps between language, thought, and human culture" are very much on topi= c for us. And part of our stated purpose is also "to conduct and suppo= rt experimental and scholarly research in these fields [various social scie= nces] as they may bear upon the problems of artificial language development= ; to communicate with and to educate interested persons and organizations a= bout these activities; to devise and develop means and instruments needed f= or these activities; and to accumulate and publish the results of such stud= ies and developments."
>
> Should we be publishing a journal?

No. There isn't enough potentially available= good-quality content, and nowadays there isn't a shortage of publicati= on outlets.

> If not, what else could we do to better support such re= search?

I tend to think that that bit of LLG's mission is= actually not compatible with the collective will of the Lojban community, = and that the latter should overrule the former. However, if the former was = to be supported then it should take the form of developing a loglang design= that is as fit for purpose as possible: that's the best combination of= what's useful to linguistics, what's unavailable elsewhere, and wh= at is an area where LLG has a good concentration of expertise and experienc= e. But even then, I'm not sure what LLG could concretely do, apart from= maybe providing a focus and gravitational centre for such an enterprise. A= nd to repeat my initial point, I think there'd be a lot of hostility in= the community to LLG supporting what many would perceive as a rival to Loj= ban.


What has been proposed by far were= indeed rivals to Lojban not better than it. Although of course one might s= ay "I don't like phonotactics" or "I don't like the = abundance of sound {x} in Lojban". Creating a Lojban2NewLoglang conver= ter would be trivial as I showed with Lojban <=3D> TLI Loglan convert= er.

The point is that all rival projects die. They= never accumulate enough mass to continue to be alive. This even happened t= o TLI Loglan itself.

What is more many people can&= #39;t even finish learning even basic gismu places in gimste and finish lea= rning the core of ma'oste not or not only because of their weird Englis= h definitions but also due to the lack of usage examples.

But even if this has been partially solved by La Bangu dictionary w= hat is more that the majority of humanity isn't going to learn not even= Lojban or any other conlang but even the most important natlangs or progra= mming languages.

So it's hard to learn Lojban = but it's much less likely that those people will handle one more loglan= g.

Good news is that many features proposed in pas= t can be easily integrated into Lojban itself. Which Lojbab showed himself = initially when adding features from Laadan.

=C2=A0=

=

--And.


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