Received: from localhost ([::1]:48682 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2D2X-0003My-7I; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 23:29:37 -0700 Received: from mail-wg0-f66.google.com ([74.125.82.66]:34222) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2D2M-0003MQ-Vd for llg-members@lojban.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 23:29:35 -0700 Received: by wggx12 with SMTP id x12so1586664wgg.1 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 23:29:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=TWryDl8gBuWSbrzteO2bncpK3b2llINhKfteWy2KsO8=; b=TyVctU6RXCvp4pfFTT54DpmLXIyQdtpfcM3DtepnsxBrUg9JKY9KB8jWGtq1EoQrAn FuT7G+wGMeDwSqVerTHi3EfCsqQL46gMC/XEP8QwFmd8AhnwamK9fB6FYoesDNnCIkUR YQoP22dkbwD4kdZm0h5zlYuWCjDBQk/xtaFIz2m8L0alUSmZjaw1jl9YpDwuBy7z9JX2 J3atWgHT6QvqHcI2wNQDtQ84MB+50P2blIzER4W2J4ZOVDls20zolmGbruc4gpgynmdX x4NcKqg16+sCZw/HqWrtDDoX5MO1r9x51ZIxnuFJUeAIlJuPCNiF5tfaWCwqfZBwiJ/+ p+Kw== X-Received: by 10.180.75.48 with SMTP id z16mr4976032wiv.49.1433831360393; Mon, 08 Jun 2015 23:29:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Jun 2015 23:29:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <55763DBE.303@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 09:29:00 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] paedagogics: about techniques of passive accumulation of Lojban X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8464028641041761865==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============8464028641041761865== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04389519e7772605180fe072 --f46d04389519e7772605180fe072 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-06-09 7:35 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka : > > > > On June 8, 2015 at 9:13:53 PM, Bob LeChevalier (lojbab@lojban.org) wrote: > > Probably better if sent (also) to the main list, since it is a topic > that non-members might have opinions/willingness to help > > On 6/7/2015 1:13 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > Since "learn grammar" methods are showing their failure to teach Lojban > > over and over again (not absolutely but significantly) a number of steps > > > have been taken lately to combat them. > > Please identify what constitutes a "learn grammar" method, as opposed > to, say, using CLL and/or Lojban For Beginners? Is a textbook > needed/useful with a substantially different approach, and how should it > differ? > > I think (could be wrong) that "learn grammar" methods refer to the lessons > we have -- CLL, L4B, Wave Lessons, La Bangu etc are all "grammar-first" as > opposed to immersion a la Duolingo or Rosetta Stone. > mi tugni > > > In what way can we tell that "learn grammar" methods are "showing their > failure"? > > Well, we don't rule the world yet, .u'i > > Obviously, the "grammar-first" learning methods that we have are not > exactly _failing_, seeing as people are learning the language. But there > may be a better way. > Yes, this survivorship bias shouldn't cheat us. There could be more people using Lojban than there are currently. The current number of Lojbanists is mostly the result of available learning methods, not the result of some inner features of Lojban as the language. --f46d04389519e7772605180fe072 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-06-09 7:35 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka <durka42@gmail.com>= :


=

On June 8, 2015 at 9:13:53 PM, Bob LeChevalier = (lojbab@lojban.org) wrote:

Probably be= tter if sent (also) to the main list, since it is a topic=C2=A0
that non-members might have opinions/willingness to help=C2=A0

On 6/7/2015 1:13 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:=C2=A0<= br>> Since "learn grammar" methods are showing their failure t= o teach Lojban=C2=A0
> over and over again (not absolute= ly but significantly) a number of steps=C2=A0
> have bee= n taken lately to combat them.=C2=A0

Please identify wh= at constitutes a "learn grammar" method, as opposed=C2=A0
to, say, using CLL and/or Lojban For Beginners? Is a textbook=C2=A0
needed/useful with a substantially different approach, an= d how should it=C2=A0
differ?=C2=A0

I think (could be wrong) that "le= arn grammar" methods refer to the lessons we have -- CLL, L4B, Wave Le= ssons, La Bangu etc are all "grammar-first" as opposed to immersi= on a la Duolingo or Rosetta Stone.


mi tugni
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