Received: from localhost ([::1]:35479 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1a9tm1-0003xK-8j; Fri, 18 Dec 2015 04:04:37 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f49.google.com ([74.125.82.49]:33579) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1a9tlt-0003x9-6U for llg-members@lojban.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2015 04:04:35 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f49.google.com with SMTP id p187so62085170wmp.0 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2015 04:04:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=nFmP4sc8qCZKebYIPTE7rFOjLYYvoKXk/yrSfz0iXno=; b=mjMiLiSlRNU0ywKFYQON0R+KXzieixpBWdzhblqnzqEWOJsColaH8NoF8Hqb9Puoop x21zoHy8lKXsQR11BydnNjMC1NtIvv5ASNDX6tX5SwPrGHH+5Ij7cWJYhNaR5OAkVyiA pdYZ6Hbmq4StQAzNtb2PAyeiygu5cu07z4tT93L7KMLjxyqZLitXO3IjrCR16ud6pHG7 O8y4Ao6pj+GQn9DkFJ5Dbkwe8THOdFyrbJ5j6jkj5ljgd8abOWe9cjmli0cbx3VNDGfM 2UipcZjF+2dNpSWf58EG2sv5YcONv+lqEnunOi4FroEla2xdUxs+RWmrZUQr+vNbUCWk j7VA== X-Received: by 10.194.75.202 with SMTP id e10mr4130809wjw.160.1450440262550; Fri, 18 Dec 2015 04:04:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.74.105 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Dec 2015 04:03:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5673EFF1.60709@gmail.com> References: <5673EFF1.60709@gmail.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 15:03:43 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] A story of "Search %s" string in Vivaldi browser X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5603333699216023792==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============5603333699216023792== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bb049c09e0e2105272af0e4 --047d7bb049c09e0e2105272af0e4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-12-18 14:37 GMT+03:00 Ilmen : > > On 18/12/2015 09:23, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > >> When I was translating Vivaldi browser interface to Lojban I aimed at th= e >> full translation of 100% of strings, which ended in Lojban being added t= o >> Vivaldi beta version while Esperanto and Ido got removed due to incomple= te >> translations. >> >> However, I faced one string that I couldn't unambiguously translate. The >> string is >> "Search" and the browser uses that to form a placeholder in the browser >> search inputbox to form "Search Google", "Search Bing" and similar. >> >> And what I found is that Lojban presents no solutions. >> 1. I used {sisku sepi'o la'oi} =3D> {sisku sepi'o la'oi Google}. The >> experimental cmavo {la'oi} quotes one word that must not contain spaces = of >> pauses inside. Hence, its immediate drawback. Users can add a search eng= ine >> leading to {sisku sepi'o la'oi Lojban MediaWiki} where "MediaWiki" hangs= in >> space. >> 2. Neither {la'o zoi.XXX.zoi} method is fine. A search engine named >> ".zoi" leads to {la'o zoi..zoi.zoi} quoting an empty string and the last >> ".zoi" hangs in space. The browser is not able to change "zoi" separator= s >> on the fly. >> 3. However, the solution in English is unambiguous. It's a user interfac= e >> widget, kinda {lu ... li'u} quoted text. >> >> widget (inputbox) boundaries are analogous to this {lu ... li'u}. >> >> This text can't refer to anything outside it, it's a thing in itself but >> this thing can be parsed and used by external mechanisms. >> >> "Search Lojban MediaWiki" means that after "Search " we have an arbitrar= y >> plain text in an unknown language until End Of Feed is reached. >> >> I imagine Lojban community could extend {la} to be able to catch >> non-Lojban text until the end of file/feed is reached. >> >> But in the current conditions I see it as a drawback of the language. >> >> > Maybe this should be discussed on the BPFK mailing list rather than here. > > If the string to be translated is of the form "... %s ..." (with %s > standing for the name of the search engine), then I think something like > {la'o cirlrbri. %s .cirlrbri} does pretty good (with some separator word > that'd be very unlikely to clash with the name of the browser, unless thi= s > latter one is chosen intentionally to clash with the separator). > exactly. good but not fine. This issue persists through other strings like la'e zoi .net. http://lojban.net.net. > Another option could be using something like =C2=AB sisku se pi'o lo se c= mene > be ti =E2=86=92 fa'o %s =C2=BB or =C2=AB sisku se pi'o lo se cmene be lo = se lidne be dei fa'o > %s =C2=BB. > indeed. Except that {ti} is vague and {dei} might not capture what goes after {fa'o}. > > =E2=80=94Ilmen. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > --047d7bb049c09e0e2105272af0e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-12-18 14:37 GMT+03:00 Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>= ;:

On 18/12/2015 09:23, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
When I was translating Vivaldi browser interface to Lojban I aimed at the f= ull translation of 100% of strings, which ended in Lojban being added to Vi= valdi beta version while Esperanto and Ido got removed due to incomplete tr= anslations.

However, I faced one string that I couldn't unambiguously translate. Th= e string is
"Search" and the browser uses that to form a placeholder in the b= rowser search inputbox to form "Search Google", "Search Bing= " and similar.

And what I found is that Lojban presents no solutions.
1. I used {sisku sepi'o la'oi} =3D> {sisku sepi'o la'oi = Google}. The experimental cmavo {la'oi} quotes one word that must not c= ontain spaces of pauses inside. Hence, its immediate drawback. Users can ad= d a search engine leading to {sisku sepi'o la'oi Lojban MediaWiki} = where "MediaWiki" hangs in space.
2. Neither {la'o zoi.XXX.zoi} method is fine. A search engine named &qu= ot;.zoi" leads to {la'o zoi..zoi.zoi} quoting an empty string and = the last ".zoi" hangs in space. The browser is not able to change= "zoi" separators on the fly.
3. However, the solution in English is unambiguous. It's a user interfa= ce widget, kinda {lu ... li'u} quoted text.

widget (inputbox) boundaries are analogous to this {lu ... li'u}.

This text can't refer to anything outside it, it's a thing in itsel= f but this thing can be parsed and used by external mechanisms.

"Search Lojban MediaWiki" means that after "Search " we= have an arbitrary plain text in an unknown language until End Of Feed is r= eached.

I imagine Lojban community could extend {la} to be able to catch non-Lojban= text until the end of file/feed is reached.

But in the current conditions I see it as a drawback of the language.


Maybe this should be discussed on the BPFK mailing list rather than here.
If the string to be translated is of the form "... %s ..." (with = %s standing for the name of the search engine), then I think something like= {la'o cirlrbri. %s .cirlrbri} does pretty good (with some separator wo= rd that'd be very unlikely to clash with the name of the browser, unles= s this latter one is chosen intentionally to clash with the separator).
=

exactly. good but not fine.

=
This issue persists through other strings like la'e zoi .net= .http://lojban.net.net.
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">


Another option could be using something like =C2=AB sisku se pi'o lo se= cmene be ti =E2=86=92 fa'o %s =C2=BB or =C2=AB sisku se pi'o lo se= cmene be lo se lidne be dei fa'o %s =C2=BB.

<= /div>
indeed. Except that {ti} is vague and {dei} might not capture wha= t goes after {fa'o}.

=C2=A0

=E2=80=94Ilmen.



_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@loj= ban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-membe= rs

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