Received: from localhost ([::1]:55423 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aBT2O-0002Ei-TB; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:56:00 -0800 Received: from mail-vk0-f66.google.com ([209.85.213.66]:34196) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aBT2J-0002EX-9P for llg-members@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:55:59 -0800 Received: by mail-vk0-f66.google.com with SMTP id a188so10803849vkc.1 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:55:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=ZstMrzC83D2QBICcWu6sIgOEYuLGs8i+exzjm9nwyuE=; b=k3eeCfbVibutvSYPMAMzRvEE2JZLXhyT+pvkCxa9tuRQPmTlNJXdLSIanYLvEzPJ+S VaxCO4XLlUWrpwFJUDcNhrOiBE316QUvsAorb3DfYl9nFcJHa7gj7gPOWDfry39F767P jgoQPRhHT72jGA8Gp2Jr7hT3IGzYxteKHofA014RjX/1KlKySDR3T18fvcG30GzlzJ9f aiztOvD6Gh6x2FBDWu7G7U0UUmQ2nH+0yZzDfF+7/p1woBcRIadU7jLZpT/besxkiWg4 1xM6zmgtYNCEch5JLuqmHllrralKcgH9fnBeHbuHVZNmfKZrYfIZCdzYtHhM6Tdeiygd OLJA== X-Received: by 10.31.190.211 with SMTP id o202mr18079877vkf.100.1450814148760; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:55:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.161.17 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:55:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <563CBDA4.5080308@selpahi.de> <4E514785-A922-4D75-B34A-EFB3880C5712@gmail.com> <566701E3.4060408@lojban.org> <566CD949.7010504@lojban.org> <5671E710.2020407@lojban.org> From: Alex Burka Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 14:55:29 -0500 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - Subject: Re: [Llg-members] 2015 Annual Meeting X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4070469214771590488==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============4070469214771590488== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11439cd0f8d98c052781fde9 --001a11439cd0f8d98c052781fde9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 (Karen, we only received the first sentence of your post.) Here are my fragmented thoughts about what LLG should do in the coming year(s): - I agree that we should leave language definition issues to BPFK. They are better equipped because the predominant language of discussion is (at least recently) Lojban, and due to the 2014 rechartering which allows it to make useful decisions *without* making a political claim of the form "X is Lojban and Y is not". - Lojban has a publicity problem. Not enough people know about the language, which means the pool of potential learners/speakers is too small. One way that LLG can combat this is to facilitate people doing publicity and outreach. This could be done by simply paying them, or providing funding for advertising campaigns (could include startup funds for things that would eventually make the LLG money, like selling books and merchandise), providing them with server space, sending them to conferences, etc. Another thing I think would help is partnerships/coordination with other groups! The LCS (Language Creation Society) is one example. In their recent meeting they talked about their lending library and I think we should give them a CLL1.1 to put in there (and a CLL2 as soon as it's ready, of course). We should make sure we have ongoing contact with groups such as nooLearn who are trying to build things with Lojban. LLG presumably needs to appoint a point person for such coordinations, or assign one of the officers to manage communications. - Lojban also has an inertia problem. Many projects plod along slowly (e.g. CLL, though recent progress has been very encouraging) or get started but never finished (e.g. the proficiency test, printed dictionary, L4B). This is quite understandable (and I fault myself here as well of course) because initial design work is much more fun than necessary grunt work. Merely exhorting people to work on things doesn't really work. Perhaps monetary rewards for completion of milestones on important projects, essentially a bounty system, could help? CLL2 and the proficiency test would be examples. - This has come up ad nauseum before, but most of our official online presence runs from a server (two servers?) in Robin's basement, AFAIK. I am *not* suggesting that he does a bad job of managing this. However, if Robin wants to transition away from this role, it seems very reasonable for LLG to pay for some (virtual) server infrastructure and hire someone to administer it. I can help with this if we go that route. - Jbonunsla attendance is indeed a problem. I was there this year and it was fun but we did not have a critical mass. There are a couple of ways we could get more attendance. The problem is that the Lojban communities are highly geographically decentralized. One possibility is awarding travel grants, but this could easily blow through the bank account in a year or two. I think a more sustainable idea is to change jbonunsla to more of an online conference model. Workshops and discussions can be held over videoconference and recorded for posterity. - In the last meeting we talked about facilitating communication between disparate Lojban communities, but nothing really got started. I strongly believe this is important for the future of the language. LLG may need to pay some natlang translators to get this off the ground, until enough people in each community are proficient enough in Lojban. An online jbonunsla (kibjbonunsla?) should contribute to this by having more international participation. - Lastly, on a personal note, to advance Lojban as a language and a community we need to work together and not antagonize each other. I haven't always been great at this in the past and I will try to do better. To la guskant specifically, I echo that your work and participation are highly valued. However, if you'll allow me a critique, even when we strongly disagree I don't believe calling each other "eternal enemies" or "illogical" is productive. Most everyone involved in the incident regarding la zantufa has apologized to you, repeatedly and publically, and dare I say even learned from those mistakes something about the power and danger of labeling certain things as "official Lojban" (see my comment above about BPFK). I really hope we can put past spats in the past so that we can work together on future projects without fear of small arguments ballooning into schisms. This got longer than I intended. Sorry. - Alex Burka (la durkavore) On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:03 PM, Karen Stein wrote: > Note: I'm leaving the list of who wrote so it's easier to sort out even > though it cluttered the beginning of my post. > > _______________________________________________ > Llg-members mailing list > Llg-members@lojban.org > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > > --001a11439cd0f8d98c052781fde9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
(Karen, we only received the first sentence of your p= ost.)

Here are my fragmented thoughts about wh= at LLG should do in the coming year(s):

- I agree that = we should leave language definition issues to BPFK. They are better equippe= d because the predominant language of discussion is (at least recently) Loj= ban, and due to the 2014 rechartering which allows it to make useful decisi= ons without making a political claim of the form "X is Lojban a= nd Y is not".

- Lojban has a publicity problem. Not= enough people know about the language, which means the pool of potential l= earners/speakers is too small. One way that LLG can combat this is to facil= itate people doing publicity and outreach. This could be done by simply pay= ing them, or providing funding for advertising campaigns (could include sta= rtup funds for things that would eventually make the LLG money, like sellin= g books and merchandise), providing them with server space, sending them to= conferences, etc. Another thing I think would help is partnerships/coordin= ation with other groups! The LCS (Language Creation Society) is one example= . In their recent meeting they talked about their lending library and I thi= nk we should give them a CLL1.1 to put in there (and a CLL2 as soon as it&#= 39;s ready, of course). We should make sure we have ongoing contact with gr= oups such as nooLearn who are trying to build things with Lojban. LLG presu= mably needs to appoint a point person for such coordinations, or assign one= of the officers to manage communications.

- Lojba= n also has an inertia problem. Many projects plod along slowly (e.g. CLL, t= hough recent progress has been very encouraging) or get started but never f= inished (e.g. the proficiency test, printed dictionary, L4B). This is quite= understandable (and I fault myself here as well of course) because initial= design work is much more fun than necessary grunt work. Merely exhorting p= eople to work on things doesn't really work. Perhaps monetary rewards f= or completion of milestones on important projects, essentially a bounty sys= tem, could help? CLL2 and the proficiency test would be examples.

- This has come up ad nauseum before, but most of our offic= ial online presence runs from a server (two servers?) in Robin's baseme= nt, AFAIK. I am not suggesting that he does a bad job of managing th= is. However, if Robin wants to transition away from this role, it seems ver= y reasonable for LLG to pay for some (virtual) server infrastructure and hi= re someone to administer it. I can help with this if we go that route.
<= /div>

- Jbonunsla attendance is indeed a problem. I was = there this year and it was fun but we did not have a critical mass. There a= re a couple of ways we could get more attendance. The problem is that the L= ojban communities are highly geographically decentralized. One possibility = is awarding travel grants, but this could easily blow through the bank acco= unt in a year or two. I think a more sustainable idea is to change jbonunsl= a to more of an online conference model. Workshops and discussions can be h= eld over videoconference and recorded for posterity.

- In the last meeting we talked about facilitating communication between= disparate Lojban communities, but nothing really got started. I strongly b= elieve this is important for the future of the language. LLG may need to pa= y some natlang translators to get this off the ground, until enough people = in each community are proficient enough in Lojban. An online jbonunsla (kib= jbonunsla?) should contribute to this by having more international particip= ation.

- Lastly, on a personal note, to advance Lo= jban as a language and a community we need to work together and not antagon= ize each other. I haven't always been great at this in the past and I w= ill try to do better. To la guskant specifically, I echo that your work and= participation are highly valued. However, if you'll allow me a critiqu= e, even when we strongly disagree I don't believe calling each other &q= uot;eternal enemies" or "illogical" is productive. Most ever= yone involved in the incident regarding la zantufa has apologized to you, r= epeatedly and publically, and dare I say even learned from those mistakes s= omething about the power and danger of labeling certain things as "off= icial Lojban" (see my comment above about BPFK). I really hope we can = put past spats in the past so that we can work together on future projects = without fear of small arguments ballooning into schisms.

This got longer than I intended. Sorry.

- A= lex Burka (la durkavore)

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:03 PM, Karen Stein <comcaresvc= s@gmail.com> wrote:
Note: I'm leaving= the list of who wrote so it's easier to sort out even though it clutte= red the beginning of my post.

_______________________________________________
Llg-members mailing list
Llg-members@lojban.org
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-membe= rs


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