Received: from localhost ([::1]:35786 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aC6Nv-00051k-Cs; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 05:56:51 -0800 Received: from mail-wm0-f48.google.com ([74.125.82.48]:37318) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aC6Np-00051Z-7D for llg-members@lojban.org; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 05:56:49 -0800 Received: by mail-wm0-f48.google.com with SMTP id p187so183721156wmp.0 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 05:56:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=j0j9wFWSZstDgQh3+P5Jd5NA9HOsDIZqY19KzSM+1Pg=; b=hcuMmZx+1Lat9Y/E20H3aoHCd5VP20HaG1b+NOQn96fY8aBCiZHCjAzwObRVNN/7m+ WlxVyl4EPvyGKtJfuTWmzqpyTXGfiXmSAN8D+VUQGf7AXKbv3R/9A/xn6SrDlSwno3JF kO8GTPPgqHiicu1maGUCUBZlFlHIqECou8m0Uetv3KarJL3QYhju8/hu/PWW3QNhElyn p/9D/PL1y8ynVc55o/zrY9385vxO/PYG3vPTAm8chzQmW/GvfgpuGxOSWkr/DLrGvF8/ wj150Y799cPZ71ikaKPLXONrORVKemVlyPrgZr37Ee5sT3VyGSfZAD7Li26v/x8/Nuee aiSQ== X-Received: by 10.28.170.133 with SMTP id t127mr37498657wme.65.1450963895040; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 05:31:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.92.206 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 05:30:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <563CBDA4.5080308@selpahi.de> <4E514785-A922-4D75-B34A-EFB3880C5712@gmail.com> <566701E3.4060408@lojban.org> <566CD949.7010504@lojban.org> <5671E710.2020407@lojban.org> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 16:30:55 +0300 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] 2015 Annual Meeting X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4247534565467312747==" Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org --===============4247534565467312747== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114424728bdf5a0527a4db5a --001a114424728bdf5a0527a4db5a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-12-24 16:08 GMT+03:00 guskant : > 2015-12-23 6:55 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna : > > > > > > 2015-12-22 22:55 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka : > >> > >> - Lojban has a publicity problem. Not enough people know about the > >> language, which means the pool of potential learners/speakers is too > small. > >> One way that LLG can combat this is to facilitate people doing > publicity and > >> outreach. This could be done by simply paying them, or providing > funding for > >> advertising campaigns (could include startup funds for things that would > >> eventually make the LLG money, like selling books and merchandise) > > > > > > Well, I'd disagree about that for the current epoch when there are no > good > > books in English. > > > > People can't learn Lojban and the only reason for that is the lack of > > learning resources. > > The only way to master fluency is either to join the main chat or to get > > paid lessons. > > > > So any advertising campaign a la Esperanto would be a waste of time, > > financial resources and would even be dangerous. > > > > One example is xorlo which for 12 years has been impeding the > development of > > Lojban (and still doing so) breaking earlier promises for a stable > language. > > > > This might not be applied to e.g. Japanese learning resources, which i > just > > can't assess. > > > > For your reference, I explain a history of learning materials in Japanese. > > Around 2008 Tijlan began to introduce Lojban in Japanese in some > forums, wikibooks, etc. > https://ja.wikibooks.org/wiki/%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B8%E3%83%90%E3%83%B3 > https://sites.google.com/site/jbotijlan/ciska/10gerna > > He led also translation of gismu and cmavo definitions into Japanese. > > 2009-05 Monakas created a Lojban learning group on Niconico. > http://com.nicovideo.jp/community/co28087 > > 2009-10 Ai began to translate "Lojban for beginners" into Japanese, > and later abandoned. > https://web.archive.org/web/20100423160519/http://www.01work.net/ > > 2010-12 Periodical offline meeting began in Tokyo. Three persons were > present: Masato Hagiwara, Hattin and Guskant. They began to translate > CLL into Japanese. > http://ponjbogri.github.io/cll-ja/ > > 2011-03 The meeting became difficult for Tohoku earthquake and tsunami > of 2011, and it was switched to Skype. Tijlan, who lived in London, > began to attend the meeting. Tijlan was going to be one of translators > of CLL. > > 2011-05 Limna began to attend the meeting. He was going to be one of > translators of CLL. > > 2012-07 Iocikun (YoshikuniJujo) began to attend the meeting. > > 2013-03 Cogas began to learn Lojban with help by Guskant. > Guskant began to create sound lessons. > http://guskant.github.io/kolojbo.iu/ > > 2013-05 Cogas translated Wave Lessons. > Guskant completed sound lessons. > > 2013-07 Cogas created excercises for the Japanese version of Wave > Lessons. He created also some supplementary chapters. > http://misonikomilojban.blogspot.jp/search/label/lojban%20wavelessons > > 2013-08 Translation of CLL almost finished. > Iocikun began to teach PEG in the meeting. > http://ponjbogri.github.io/cll-ja/peg/peg_summary.txt > http://ponjbogri.github.io/cll-ja/peg/slabu_gerna_peg.txt > http://ponjbogri.github.io/cll-ja/peg/zasni_gerna_peg.txt > > 2013-09 Cogas began to create the first version of elementary course > "Hajiloji". > http://seesaawiki.jp/hajiloji/ > > 2013-12 Guskant gave an offline presentation "Lojban and Quine" to > philosophers. Ento (Marica Odagaki: she is one of translators of CLL), > Niftyg, and some other lojbanists were also present. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzqhNYCWKLo > > 2014-03 Guskant completed Japanese version of "gadri: an unofficial > commentary from a logical point of view". > > https://mw.lojban.org/papri/gadri_%E3%81%AE%E8%AB%96%E7%90%86%E5%AD%A6%E7%9A%84%E8%A6%B3%E7%82%B9%E3%81%8B%E3%82%89%E3%81%AE%E8%A7%A3%E8%AA%AC > > 2014-07 Cogas began to create the second version of elementary course > "Hajiloji". > http://cogas.github.io/hajiloji/ > > 2015-04 Periodical Skype meeting ceased. > This all (except the last :) ) imo should be a part of Lojban timeline page. > 2015-12-23 6:55 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna : > > > > I'd rather say that Lojban is very far from linguistics, even polyglots > and > > professional linguists can't understand CLL. > > > > Did you take statistics of it? I'm neither linguist nor polyglot, but > in my opinion, CLL, even the first version, is the easiest to > understand among all the learning materials in English. Well, lucky you that you are neither a linguist nor a polyglot. It might be so that polyglots and conlangers ( http://conlangery.com/2012/03/19/conlangery-42-practicum-getting-rid-of-adjectives/ ) may just expect something written in "normal" linguistic terminology. I have no idea how and whether they tried to learn Straits Salishan language but even the latter at least *seems* to be described in some set of terms usual to linguists. And when they don't find it they laugh at it or just throw away. To name the third case (the second is Wikipedia) Andre Muller on Facebook said that after abandoning Lojban he had to read The Crash Course where the word "predicate" was not even mentioned at that time and only after that (having understood the basics) he returned to reading CLL. > Masato > Hagiwara, who is fluent in Japanese, Chinese and English, and also a > researcher of Natural Language Processing, agreed to my opinion. > Oh well, how many people on Earth are like Masato Hagiwara? He is a hyperpolyglot if you consider programming languages as languages. We need to extend Lojban presence by repacking its learning resources into better words and better forms. Even for those who know nothing of logic, programming, conlangery and who don't speak anything but their only native language. Like that Hajiloji website. --001a114424728bdf5a0527a4db5a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-12-24 16:08 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com><= /span>:
2015-12-23 6:55 GMT+00:00 Glek= i Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.na= me@gmail.com>:
>
>
> 2015-12-22 22:55 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka <durka42@gmail.com>:
>>
>> - Lojban has a publicity problem. Not enou= gh people know about the
>> language, which means the pool of potential learners/speakers is t= oo small.
>> One way that LLG can combat this is to facilitate people doing pub= licity and
>> outreach. This could be done by simply paying them, or providing f= unding for
>> advertising campaigns (could include startup funds for things that= would
>> eventually make the LLG money, like selling books and merchandise)=
>
>
> Well, I'd disagree about that for the current epoch when there are= no good
> books in English.
>
> People can't learn Lojban and the only reason for that is the lack= of
> learning resources.
> The only way to master fluency is either to join the main chat or to g= et
> paid lessons.
>
> So any advertising campaign a la Esperanto would be a waste of time, > financial resources and would even be dangerous.
>
> One example is xorlo which for 12 years has been impeding the developm= ent of
> Lojban (and still doing so) breaking earlier promises for a stable lan= guage.
>
> This might not be applied to e.g. Japanese learning resources, which i= just
> can't assess.
>

For your reference, I explain a history of learning materials in Jap= anese.

Around 2008 Tijlan began to introduce Lojban in Japanese in some
forums, wikibooks, etc.
https://ja.wikibooks.org/wiki/%E3%= 83%AD%E3%82%B8%E3%83%90%E3%83%B3
https://sites.google.com/site/jbotijlan/ciska/1= 0gerna

He led also translation of gismu and cmavo definitions into Japanese.

2009-05 Monakas created a Lojban learning group on Niconico.
http://com.nicovideo.jp/community/co28087

2009-10 Ai began to translate "Lojban for beginners" into Japanes= e,
and later abandoned.
https://web.archive.org/web/2010042= 3160519/http://www.01work.net/

2010-12 Periodical offline meeting began in Tokyo. Three persons were
present: Masato Hagiwara, Hattin and Guskant. They began to translate
CLL into Japanese.
http://ponjbogri.github.io/cll-ja/

2011-03 The meeting became difficult for Tohoku earthquake and tsunami
of 2011, and it was switched to Skype. Tijlan, who lived in London,
began to attend the meeting. Tijlan was going to be one of translators
of CLL.

2011-05 Limna began to attend the meeting. He was going to be one of
translators of CLL.

2012-07 Iocikun (YoshikuniJujo) began to attend the meeting.

2013-03 Cogas began to learn Lojban with help by Guskant.
Guskant began to create sound lessons.
http://guskant.github.io/kolojbo.iu/

2013-05 Cogas translated Wave Lessons.
Guskant completed sound lessons.

2013-07 Cogas created excercises for the Japanese version of Wave
Lessons. He created also some supplementary chapters.
http://misonikomilojban.blogspo= t.jp/search/label/lojban%20wavelessons

2013-08 Translation of CLL almost finished.
Iocikun began to teach PEG in the meeting.
http://ponjbogri.github.io/cll-ja/peg/peg_summa= ry.txt
http://ponjbogri.github.io/cll-ja/peg/sla= bu_gerna_peg.txt
http://ponjbogri.github.io/cll-ja/peg/zas= ni_gerna_peg.txt

2013-09 Cogas began to create the first version of elementary course "= Hajiloji".
http://seesaawiki.jp/hajiloji/

2013-12 Guskant gave an offline presentation "Lojban and Quine" t= o
philosophers. Ento (Marica Odagaki: she is one of translators of CLL),
Niftyg, and some other lojbanists were also present.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DlzqhNYCWKLo

2014-03 Guskant completed Japanese version of "gadri: an unofficial commentary from a logical point of view".
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/gadri= _%E3%81%AE%E8%AB%96%E7%90%86%E5%AD%A6%E7%9A%84%E8%A6%B3%E7%82%B9%E3%81%8B%E= 3%82%89%E3%81%AE%E8%A7%A3%E8%AA%AC

2014-07 Cogas began to create the second version of elementary course
"Hajiloji".
http://cogas.github.io/hajiloji/

2015-04 Periodical Skype meeting ceased.

This all (except the last :) ) imo should be a part of Lojban timeline pa= ge.


2015-12-23 6:55 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>:
>
> I'd rather say that Lojban is very far from linguistics, even poly= glots and
> professional linguists can't understand CLL.
>

Did you take statistics of it? I'm neither linguist nor polyglot= , but
in my opinion, CLL, even the first version, is the easiest to
understand among all the learning materials in English.
Well, lucky you that you are neither a linguist nor a polyglot= .
It might be so that polyglots and conlangers (http://conlangery.com/2012/03/19/conlangery-42-practicum-getting-rid-of= -adjectives/ ) may just expect something written in "normal" = linguistic terminology.

I have no idea how and whe= ther they tried to learn Straits Salishan language but even the latter at l= east *seems* to be described in some set of terms usual to linguists.
=

And when they don't find it they laugh at it or jus= t throw away.
To name the third case (the second is Wikipedia) An= dre Muller on Facebook said that after abandoning Lojban he had to read The= Crash Course where the word "predicate" was not even mentioned a= t that time and only after that (having understood the basics) he returned = to reading CLL.


=C2=A0
Masato
Hagiwara, who is fluent in Japanese, Chinese and English, and also a
researcher of Natural Language Processing, agreed to my opinion.

Oh well, how many people on Earth are like Masato= Hagiwara?
He is a hyperpolyglot if you consider programming lang= uages as languages.

We need to extend Lojban prese= nce by repacking its learning resources into better words and better forms.=

Even for those who know nothing of logic, program= ming, conlangery and who don't speak anything but their only native lan= guage.

Like that Hajiloji website.
=
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