Received: from localhost ([::1]:37786 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aCICi-0006JB-W4; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 18:34:05 -0800 Received: from mail-ig0-f179.google.com ([209.85.213.179]:38471) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1aCICd-0006Iy-Dq for llg-members@lojban.org; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 18:34:03 -0800 Received: by mail-ig0-f179.google.com with SMTP id jw2so104139450igc.1 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 18:33:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=Z/RhIxvWC2ifklFa18bBTk+AP2xK2VdrBPSLTqxiQpU=; b=GcHromGcbsX/NipYdj9c+GNJtBb6eoroXwv3lXV+LzuHsUeVtqOhZYzhbbqsaGUd/A PiiSCn/5g0lCLzAP+us/y0DckoS/867zYpdkuBv+/tdgiZ0LQaaSR9EQgjseypkqQblO ZrVFuDk65FuQOzSxibAPeu7rVO2Q6tmW1ZqyeDL2w3wmN6cCCnM7tEW9vRoa93B/JLxn WjFBetUw9BMxSaQ7jvnSHVBalUD5J/+5w9mJuSrq2g2VK+qQqnyUEeuy40qVM0Qp5Mo+ rv0DUHgOJjN1fSlhhRO+BSyVxWHRHdl96LFZ7K/j0i2wPLHrrt379o7Fcs9WlTDIkZOt Y2GA== X-Received: by 10.50.160.11 with SMTP id xg11mr28574207igb.83.1451010833012; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 18:33:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.36.112.14 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Dec 2015 18:33:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <563CBDA4.5080308@selpahi.de> <4E514785-A922-4D75-B34A-EFB3880C5712@gmail.com> <566701E3.4060408@lojban.org> <566CD949.7010504@lojban.org> <5671E710.2020407@lojban.org> From: guskant Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 02:33:33 +0000 Message-ID: To: llg-members@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Subject: Re: [Llg-members] 2015 Annual Meeting X-BeenThere: llg-members@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: llg-members@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: llg-members-bounces@lojban.org 2015-12-24 14:46 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna : > > > 2015-12-24 17:33 GMT+03:00 guskant : >> >> 2015-12-24 13:30 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna : >> > >> > >> > 2015-12-24 16:08 GMT+03:00 guskant : >> >> >> >> >> >> 2015-12-23 6:55 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna : >> >> > >> >> > I'd rather say that Lojban is very far from linguistics, even >> >> > polyglots >> >> > and >> >> > professional linguists can't understand CLL. >> >> > >> >> >> >> Did you take statistics of it? I'm neither linguist nor polyglot, but >> >> in my opinion, CLL, even the first version, is the easiest to >> >> understand among all the learning materials in English. >> > >> > >> > Well, lucky you that you are neither a linguist nor a polyglot. >> > It might be so that polyglots and conlangers >> > >> > (http://conlangery.com/2012/03/19/conlangery-42-practicum-getting-rid-of-adjectives/ >> > ) may just expect something written in "normal" linguistic terminology. >> > >> > I have no idea how and whether they tried to learn Straits Salishan >> > language >> > but even the latter at least *seems* to be described in some set of >> > terms >> > usual to linguists. >> > >> > And when they don't find it they laugh at it or just throw away. >> > To name the third case (the second is Wikipedia) Andre Muller on >> > Facebook >> > said that after abandoning Lojban he had to read The Crash Course where >> > the >> > word "predicate" was not even mentioned at that time and only after that >> > (having understood the basics) he returned to reading CLL. >> > >> > >> >> OK, so you have no statistics and opine based on your own ideal. > > > No stats since too few people ever succeeded. > And those were their opinions, not mine. You may check themselves. I can > send a link to the post in facebook (the third case). > >> >> >> We have now two different opinions about CLL: >> 1. You think that other polyglots and conlangers don't understand CLL. >> 2. Masato, the super-polyglot, and I, the ordinary person, both think >> that the current CLL is easy to understand. > > > If Masato speaks only English, Chinese and Japanese then he is in usual > sense not a polyglot. 5 languages are usually required. > > But he is a programmer and we know that being a programmer is the most > common trend among Lojbanists. > I simply took your words "he is a hyperpolyglot if...". I really hate your responses without consistency. Off topic: Masato's most fluent languages are Japanese, Chinese and English, but I know he speaks Cantonese and Korean, maybe he has knowledge of Hakka Chinese and others. >> >> >> From these very limited information, we can only conclude: >> 1-1. In order to promote Lojban to other polyglots and conlangers, >> some text in terms of linguistics are necessary. > > > Yes. > >> >> 2-1. In order to promote Lojban to super-polyglots and ordinary >> people, the current CLL is enough (though some modifications based on >> the development of Lojban are required for the next version). > > > I wouldn't limit anyone in any resources at all. We can't know beforehand > life experience of newcomers. > > It's much easier than that. > CLL is to be retained, L4B and la'e {la lojban. mo} are to be either updated > or abandoned. > New resources are to be constantly updated, monitored and presented to > newcomers. > I would in every way welcome any new methods of presenting and teaching > Lojban. > > After that we can observe some trends and make some conclusions. > >> >> Then, we have only one peaceful solution: you make another book for >> linguists, and the others brush up CLL for super-polyglots and >> ordinary people according to the current policy. > > > CLL as it is now is absolutely fine to me. Maybe there is some abuse of > English terminology like "letteral" but in general nothing serious is to be > fixed. One can add a short notice "lo sumti correspond to nouns, pronouns, > names in English", and this notice would be enough. I can imagine this book > only expanding. > > Simply, as la .pycyn. said it's not a textbook :). That's why people are > having problems with understanding it. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Masato >> >> Hagiwara, who is fluent in Japanese, Chinese and English, and also a >> >> researcher of Natural Language Processing, agreed to my opinion. >> > >> > >> > Oh well, how many people on Earth are like Masato Hagiwara? >> > He is a hyperpolyglot if you consider programming languages as >> > languages. >> > >> > We need to extend Lojban presence by repacking its learning resources >> > into >> > better words and better forms. >> > >> > Even for those who know nothing of logic, programming, conlangery and >> > who >> > don't speak anything but their only native language. >> > >> > Like that Hajiloji website. >> > >> >> Yes, you need of course a website like Hajiloji, but my subject here >> is only the next version of CLL, not the elementary courses. > > > Oh, sorry then. No, I don't have any revolutionary plans regarding CLL. The > Errata page and the github repo are IMO the main places to discuss anything > related to the content of CLL. > I beg you to read the whole message before responding each lines. It relieves my anxious that you don't plan to destroy CLL. How ever, you have already removed from CLL2.0 "voi" and "observative" that are not yet agreed by BPFK. We will be able to remove your push and save only the other's fruitful pushes in the future, but I rather prefer that you make only comments on lines, and don't touch the contents before agreement by BPFK. I really hate your dictatorship (sorry, I have no other word to qualify your various activities). > I'd rather discuss a possible reference grammar written in pure Lojban. > I agree, but it is out of my subject here. mi'e la guskant mu'o _______________________________________________ Llg-members mailing list Llg-members@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members