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Content preview: The page BPFK Section: Irrealis Attitudinals was changed by admin at 19:59 UTC You can view the page by following this link: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK%20Section%3A%20Irrealis%20Attitudinals [...] Content analysis details: (2.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 1.6 RCVD_IN_BRBL_LASTEXT RBL: RCVD_IN_BRBL_LASTEXT [173.13.139.235 listed in bb.barracudacentral.org] 0.4 RDNS_DYNAMIC Delivered to internal network by host with dynamic-looking rDNS Subject: [Wikichanges] Wiki page BPFK Section: Irrealis Attitudinals changed by admin X-BeenThere: wikichanges@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: webmaster@lojban.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: wikichanges-bounces@lojban.org The page BPFK Section: Irrealis Attitudinals was changed by admin at 19:59 UTC You can view the page by following this link: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK%20Section%3A%20Irrealis%20Attitudinals You can view a diff back to the previous version by following this link: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-pagehistory.php?page=BPFK%20Section%3A%20Irrealis%20Attitudinals&compare=1&oldver=21&newver=22 *********************************************************** The changes in this version follow below, followed after by the current full page text. *********************************************************** +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ @@ -Lines: 205-208 changed to +Lines: 205-209 @@ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ * __e'u cu'i__ "abandon suggestion"? + * selpa'i uses {.ei} as "should" and {.e'i} as "must" (as in {.e'i mi'o denpa .i lo sorpeka pu'o zvati}), I (camgusmis) think that's pretty good. The {.e'e} here is obviously out of the question, and I think keeping something like "must" is worth it, too, and closer to what we have. !! Section Issues *********************************************************** The new page content follows below. *********************************************************** !!Proposed definitions ;__.a'i __ (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express effort / endeavor / exertion / labor / pains / strife / toil. (cf. troci, gunka, slunandu, selprogunka, fu'i nai) .a'i mi ze'a ba ralte %%% ''I'm trying to hold it!'' .a'i mi ba gasnu lo nu do cikna binxo %%% ''It'll be hard for me to wake you up.'' ;__.a'i cu'i__ (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express effortlessness / ease / facility / no special effort (cf. selfrili, fu'i) .a'i cu'i ti frili %%% ''Ah, this is easy.'' ;__.a'i nai__ (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express repose / inaction / inactivity / passivity / lackadaisicalness / indolence(cf. toltoi, cando, guksurla) .a'i nai cikre ta %%% ''Nah, why bother fixing it.'' ;__.ai__ (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express intent / intentionality / purpose / design (cf. zukte, platu) .ai mi ze'e ba jmive%%% ''I intend to live forever.'' .ai le mi cukta do sidju gi'e pacnygau%%% ''I intend for my book to give you help and hope.'' ;__.ai cu'i__ (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express indecision / hesitation / vacillation / wavering. .ai cu'i mi ti ba te vecnu%%% ''I don't know whether I'll purchase these or not.'' ;__.ai nai__ (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express non-intent / unintentionality / accidentality / unplannedness. (cf. selsnuti) .ai nai mi gunka ca le pavdei%%% ''I'm not planning to work on Monday.'' .ai nai mi jmina lo valsi poi mi finti%%% ''I don't mean to add words of my own devising.'' .ai nai do pu se xrani%%% ''I didn't mean for you to get hurt.'' ;__.au__ (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express desire / wish / yearning / aspiration. (cf. djica) .au lo tricu cu krati lo ro se genja gi'e sfasa lo kusru be gy%%% ''Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!'' ;__.au cu'i__ (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express indifference / apathy / disinterest. (cf. nordji) .au cu'i makau jinga%%% ''I don't really care who wins.'' ;__.au nai__ (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express reluctance / averseness / disinclination. (cf. toldji) .au nai mi cliva%%% ''I'm reluctant to leave.'' ;__.a'o__ (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express hope / longing. (cf. pacna) .a'o le nobli cu gidva lo se zukte be mi%%% ''Oh, that the Lord would guide my ways.'' ;__.a'o nai__ (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express despair / hopelessness / dread / fear that a situation ensues. (cf. tolpacna) .a'o nai ro da ca se cirko%%% ''Everything will be lost now.'' ;__.ei__ (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express obligation / how things ought to be. (cf. bilga) .ei mi cliva co'o%%% ''Gotta go now, bye!'' .ei le jatna cu ckeji%%% ''The president ought to be ashamed.'' .ei do djuno%%% ''You ought to know.'' ;__.ei nai__ (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express freedom / lack of obligation / how things need not be. (cf. zifre) .ei nai do tolnurcni%%% ''You don't have to feel threatened.'' ;__.e'a__ (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to permit / allow / grant permission / authorization / consent / license. (cf. curmi) .e'a do tsebi'o%%% ''You may sit down.'' ;__.e'a nai__ (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to prohibit / forbid / deny permission / authorization / consent / license. (cf. tolcru) .e'a nai do ti stali%%% ''You can't stay here.'' ;__.e'e__ (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to exhort / incite / motivate / encourage / entreat / stimulate / challenge / dare / provoke / invite competition. (cf. talsa) .e'e ko jarco lo se kakne be do%%% ''Show them what you can do! Go for it!'' .e'e mi do bajra jivna fe'e co'u le karce%%% ''I'll race you to the car!'' ;__.e'e nai__ (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to discourage / intimidate / demoralize / deprecate / dampen / bridle / avoid / dodge / elude / duck / evade / back off / withdraw. (cf. zunti, dicra) .e'e nai doi nelis%%% ''Whoa, Nelly!'' .e'e nai mi bilga lo nu zukte lo drata%%% ''Sorry, I have other things to do.'' ;__.e'i__ (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to command / dictate / instruct / order / oblige / constrain / impose an obligation. (cf. minde, ri'urgau) .e'i ko ta mi dunda%%% ''Give that to me!'' ;__.e'i nai__ (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to discharge / absolve / dismiss / exonerate / liberate / release / unbind / free of an obligation. (cf. zi'ergau) .e'i nai ko zukte lo se djica be do%%% ''Do whatever you please!'' ;__.e'o__ (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to make a request. (cf. cpedu, pe'u) .e'o do dunda le silna mi%%% ''Can you pass me the salt, please?'' ;__.e'o nai__ (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to grant / cede / proffer / make an offer. (cf. friti) .e'o nai ko lebna lo titla%%% ''Here, have some candy.'' ;__.e'u__ (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to suggest / persuade / advise. (cf. stidi) .e'u mi'o salci%%% ''Let's party!'' ;__.e'u nai__ (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to dissuade / warn / disadvise. (cf. kajde, o'i) .e'u nai do kargau le moklu%%% ''You better not open your mouth.'' ;__ia__ (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express belief / conviction / faith / certainty (cf. krici, birti, jinvi) ia lo cevni cu zasti%%% ''Indeed God exists.'' ;__ia cu'i__ (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express skepticism / doubt / agnosticism / uncertainty. (cf. senpi) ia cu'i lo cevni cu zasti%%% ''Hmm ... God may or may not exist.'' ;__ia nai__ (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express disbelief / incredulity / rejection (cf. tolkri) ia nai lo cevni cu zasti%%% ''I don't believe God exists.'' ;__ie__ (UI1): Attitudinal. Used to express agreement / concordance / accord / concurrence. (cf. tugni) ie ta melbi%%% ''Yes, that's beautiful.'' ;__ie nai__ (UI*1): Attitudinal. Used to express disagreement / dissent / contention / difference / argument. (cf. toltu'i) ie nai go'i%%% ''I disagree with that.'' !!Notes * The definitions of ''e'e'' and ''e'i'' are based on a very loose interpretation of some of the keywords, so that they fit the e-series, which in all other cases expresses the speaker's attitude towards the audience's bringing about some situation. * __ai nai__ changed from rejection / refusal (which is __i'a nai__) to unintentionality / accidentality / unplannedness. * __e'o nai__ "make an offer", instead of "negative request"? ** I have no idea what a "negative request" is. I do, however, see how "offer" is a negative of "request". - .aionys. * __e'u cu'i__ "abandon suggestion"? * selpa'i uses {.ei} as "should" and {.e'i} as "must" (as in {.e'i mi'o denpa .i lo sorpeka pu'o zvati}), I (camgusmis) think that's pretty good. The {.e'e} here is obviously out of the question, and I think keeping something like "must" is worth it, too, and closer to what we have. !! Section Issues * Recent discussions have brought up the question of whether a realis/irrealis dichotomy makes sense at all, or whether all bridi are implicitly semi-realis, with some attitudinals leading to stronger implications one way or the other. Public opinion seems to be in favor of removing the split. If so, the definitions may need to be tweaked to make this more clear. If not, then someone needs to speak up in defense of the split. [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/dc6bb04a6f9167f3|The realis/irrealis distinction] has been rather hotly debated over the years. It is my ( Lindar ) opinion that the reality/irreality of the UI is dependent upon the reality/irreality of the jufra, and can be indicated with da'i/da'inai or some other kind of marker. This way ''ni'o .a'o mi klama'' can mean ''I hope I go.'' in one instance and ''I'm going, about which I feel hopeful.'' for another, rather than being restricted to one meaning. !!Poll {POLL(pollId=>24)}BPFK Poll: Irrealis Attitudinals{POLL} _______________________________________________ Wikichanges mailing list Wikichanges@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/wikichanges