Received: from localhost ([::1]:58752 helo=stodi.digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SHdiN-0007OG-JH; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:14:43 -0700 Received: from 173-13-139-235-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net ([173.13.139.235]:39622 helo=digitalkingdom.org) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SHdiE-0007O7-F8 for wikineurotic@lojban.org; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:14:41 -0700 Received: by digitalkingdom.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:14:34 -0700 From: "Apache" Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:14:34 -0700 To: wikineurotic@lojban.org X-PHP-Originating-Script: 48:htmlMimeMail.php MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Spam_score: 2.6 X-Spam_score_int: 26 X-Spam_bar: ++ X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: The page ''Gismu'' Agentive And Non-Agentive was changed by gleki at 16:14 UTC You can view the page by following this link: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/%27%27Gismu%27%27%20Agentive%20And%20Non-Agentive [...] Content analysis details: (2.6 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 1.6 RCVD_IN_BRBL_LASTEXT RBL: RCVD_IN_BRBL_LASTEXT [173.13.139.235 listed in bb.barracudacentral.org] 0.0 NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP URI: Uses a dotted-decimal IP address in URL 0.4 RDNS_DYNAMIC Delivered to internal network by host with dynamic-looking rDNS 0.6 TO_NO_BRKTS_DYNIP To: misformatted and dynamic rDNS Subject: [Wikineurotic] Wiki page ''Gismu'' Agentive And Non-Agentive changed by gleki X-BeenThere: wikineurotic@lojban.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: webmaster@lojban.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7905609740018584224==" Errors-To: wikineurotic-bounces@lojban.org --===============7905609740018584224== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The page ''Gismu'' Agentive And Non-Agentive was changed by gleki at 16:14 UTC You can view the page by following this link: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/%27%27Gismu%27%27%20Agentive%20And%20Non-Agentive You can view a diff back to the previous version by following this link: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-pagehistory.php?page=%27%27Gismu%27%27%20Agentive%20And%20Non-Agentive&compare=1&oldver=1&newver=2 *********************************************************** The changes in this version follow below, followed after by the current full page text. *********************************************************** +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ @@ -Lines: 1-7 changed to +Lines: 1-15 @@ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ - Unfortunately English not always marks this distinction (e.g. "return", + As ((pne|I)) understand it, the practice of distinguishing between agent (ergative) and non-agent (absolutive), rather than between nonpatient (nominative) and patient (accusative) as is common in Indo-European languages.

For a '''very''' brief overview of different case-marking systems, see [http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/r.html] -- part of a rant against Esperanto, but you can ignore that here; this appendix focuses only on cases. Ergative languages use approach (E) in his list.

''How do we express this in Lojban? gausmi?''
* ''gernrgativiti'' --((And)) (mi stidi)


Unfortunately English not always marks this distinction (e.g. "return", the infamous keyword of ''xruti'')... See ((Ergativity)). - __Non-Agentive form__ & its corresponding __Agentive__: + __Non-Agentive form__ & its corresponding __Agentive__: ''cfari'' begins-------------''cfagau'' initiates +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ @@ -Lines: 102-106 changed to +Lines: 110-114 @@ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ - * One must also consider the "hidden doers", those with non-x1 agent places: + * One must also consider the "hidden doers", those with non-x1 agent places: ** ''smuni'' has meaning---------------''tersmu'' interprets ** ''tatpi'' is tired------------------''seltatpi'' tires +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ @@ -Lines: 117-121 changed to +Lines: 125-129 @@ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ;''zilcfipu'' is confused :''cfipu'' confuses --((And)) - * Wouldn't "is killed" be better as a translation than "dies"? That is, there has to be a killer or there isn't really any ''catra''ing involved. I'd use ''mrobi'o'' (become dead) for just plain dying "without a cause". (And I'm not sure whether consensus was reached on the usage of ''zil-'' in this manner. ''¿xu la .andban. lojbo?'') --mi'e ((pne|filip)) + * Wouldn't "is killed" be better as a translation than "dies"? That is, there has to be a killer or there isn't really any ''catra''ing involved. I'd use ''mrobi'o'' (become dead) for just plain dying "without a cause". (And I'm not sure whether consensus was reached on the usage of ''zil-'' in this manner. ''�xu la .andban. lojbo?'') --mi'e ((pne|filip)) * It's a reasonable suspicion to have when I say something, but in this instance it's pretty uncontroversial, at least among the jboskepre. (I can't speak for nonjboskpre, since I don't get to hear their relevant views.) *********************************************************** The new page content follows below. *********************************************************** As ((pne|I)) understand it, the practice of distinguishing between agent (ergative) and non-agent (absolutive), rather than between nonpatient (nominative) and patient (accusative) as is common in Indo-European languages. For a '''very''' brief overview of different case-marking systems, see [http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/r.html] -- part of a rant against Esperanto, but you can ignore that here; this appendix focuses only on cases. Ergative languages use approach (E) in his list. ''How do we express this in Lojban? gausmi?'' * ''gernrgativiti'' --((And)) (mi stidi) Unfortunately English not always marks this distinction (e.g. "return", the infamous keyword of ''xruti'')... See ((Ergativity)). __Non-Agentive form__ & its corresponding __Agentive__: ''cfari'' begins-------------''cfagau'' initiates ''denpa'' pauses-------------''depygau'' delays ''tolcfa'' comes to a stop---''sisti'' halts (or ''dicra'' interrupts) ''sezyxru'' reverts----------''xruti'' restores ''cenba'' varies-------------''cenbygau'' or (''cnegau'') alters ''jelca'' burns--------------''jelgau'' ignites ''snura'' is secure----------''bandu'' protects ''masno'' is slow------------''snogau'' retards (or ''jabre'' brakes) ''muvdu'' moves--------------''muvgau'' causes to move ''mrobi'o'' dies-------------''catra'' kills ''banro'' develops-----------''banrygau'' nurtures ''zenba'' increases----------''zengau'' augments ''banzu'' suffices-----------''bazgau'' fulfills ''culno'' is full------------''tisna'' fills ''basti'' takes the place of--''basygau'' replaces ''klama'' goes----------------''bevri'' conveys ''bilma'' is sick-------------''bilmygau'' sickens ''bredi'' is ready------------''redgau'' prepares ''carna'' turns---------------''cargau'' rotates ''selcfipu'' is confused------''cfipu'' confuses ''cilre'' learns---------------''ctuca'' teaches ''ckeji'' feels ashamed--------''kejgau'' humiliates ''kakne'' is able---------------''curmi'' allows ''curve'' is pure--------------''cuvgau'' purifies ''danfu'' is an answer----------''dafsku'' replies (or ''frati'') ''drani'' is correct------------''dragau'' rectifies ''farlu'' falls-----------------''falgau'' drops ''fatne'' is backwards----------''fatygau'' reverses ''febvi'' comes to a boil-------''fabgau'' boils ''porpi'' comes apart-----------''popygau'' breaks ''fukpi'' is a copy-------------''fukyzba'' duplicates ''gacri'' is a cover------------''gairgau'' covers over ''ganlo'' is closed-------------''ganlygau'' closes ''gusni'' illumines-------------''gusygau'' illuminates ''jdika'' contracts-------------''jdikygau'' decreases ''jinru'' bathes----------------''jirgau'' immerses ''jorne'' is joined to----------''jongau'' connects ''katna'' cutter----------------''katnygau'' cuts ''burcu'' brush-----------------''bruzu'e'' paints ''komcu'' is a comb-------------''komzu'e'' combs ''korcu'' is bent---------------''krogau'' bends ''krefu'' repeats---------------''refygau'' causes to recur ''kunti'' is empty--------------''kutygau'' vacates ''gapru'' is above---------------''lafti'' lifts ''lunbe'' is bare----------------''lubgau'' denudes ''manku'' is dark----------------''mangau'' darkens ''mapti'' fits-------------------''matygau'' matches ''muvdu'' is in motion------------''muvgau'' moves ''selnupre'' is a promise---------''nupre'' promises ''pagre'' penetrates--------------''gregau'' causes to penetrate ''panlo'' is a slice--------------''panlyzba'' slices ''pijne'' is a pin----------------''pijnylasna'' pins ''pindi'' is poor-----------------''pidgau'' impoverishes ''preti'' is a question-----------''retsku'' asks a question (or ''tese preti'') ''preja'' expands-----------------''pejgau'' spreads ''cpana'' is on (''zvati'' at)----''punji'' puts on/at ''punli'' is a swelling-----------''pulgau'' swells ''ranji'' lasts-------------------''ranjygau'' causes to last (makes lasting) ''ranti'' is soft------------------''rangau'' softens ''ricfu'' is rich------------------''cfugau'' enriches ''panzi'' offspring----------------''rorci'' procreates ''viknu'' is thick-----------------''viknygau'' thickens ''ruble'' is weak-------------------''blegau'' weakens ''runme'' is melting----------------''rumgau'' makes melt ''runta'' dissolves------------------''runtygau'' makes dissolve ''sepli'' is apart-------------------''fendi'' divides ''nenri'' is within------------------''setca'' inserts ''jbini'' is between-----------------''setca'' interposes ''spoja'' explodes-------------------''pojgau'' blows up ''sraku'' is sharp-------------------''rakygau'' scratches ''sudga'' is dry---------------------''sudgau'' dries off ''sutra'' is fast--------------------''sutygau'' hastens ''tcena'' stretches------------------''tengau'' extends ''terpa'' fears----------------------''tepygau'' frightenss ''tinsa'' is stiff-------------------''tensygau'' stiffens ''titla'' is sweet--------------------''titygau'' sweetens ''tordu'' is short--------------------''torgau'' shortens ''tsali'' is strong--------------------''tsagau'' strengthens ''tsapi'' ia a spice-------------------''tsapygau'' seasons ''vasru'' contains---------------------''vasygau'' encloses ''vlipa'' is powerful-------------------''vligau'' empowers ''vreji'' is a record of----------------''rejgau'' records ''vrusi'' is a flavor-------------------''vusyga'e'' tastes ''panci'' is an odor---------------------''sumne'' smells ''zasti'' exists-------------------------''zbasu'' creates ''zekri'' is a crime---------------------''zerzukte'' commits a crime ''zifre'' is free------------------------''zifygau'' liberates (There are doubtless others.) * The place structure of ''xruti'' has changed during its history... ** A note [http://66.111.43.200/~jkominek/nuzban/wiki/index.php?Gismu%20list%20errata|here] says (1994) that ''xruti'' was to become non-agentive, although it remains agentive on the ''gismu'' lists of 9-6-94. ** I will have to check my notes, but IIRC the non-agentive meaning was changed to the present agentive at about the same time as the Great Rafsi Shift. * Lojban distinguishes ((forms of causation))...One could extend the foregoing series with ''each of the others''. * One must also consider the "hidden doers", those with non-x1 agent places: ** ''smuni'' has meaning---------------''tersmu'' interprets ** ''tatpi'' is tired------------------''seltatpi'' tires ** ''fengu'' is angry------------------''selfengu'' angers ** ''torni'' is twisting---------------''seltorni'' twists ** ''xalni'' is panicked---------------''selxalni'' terrifies ** ''zgike'' is music------------------''selzgi'' makes music ---- That's a very useful list. We shouldn't overlook the usefulness of ''zil-'', though: ;''zilsti'' comes to a stop :''sisti'' halts (or ''dicra'' interrupts) ;''zilxru'' reverts :''xruti'' restores ;''zilcatra'' dies :''catra'' kills ;''zilcfipu'' is confused :''cfipu'' confuses --((And)) * Wouldn't "is killed" be better as a translation than "dies"? That is, there has to be a killer or there isn't really any ''catra''ing involved. I'd use ''mrobi'o'' (become dead) for just plain dying "without a cause". (And I'm not sure whether consensus was reached on the usage of ''zil-'' in this manner. ''�xu la .andban. lojbo?'') --mi'e ((pne|filip)) * It's a reasonable suspicion to have when I say something, but in this instance it's pretty uncontroversial, at least among the jboskepre. (I can't speak for nonjboskpre, since I don't get to hear their relevant views.) --===============7905609740018584224== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Wikineurotic mailing list Wikineurotic@lojban.org http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/wikineurotic --===============7905609740018584224==--