Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189])
	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72)
	(envelope-from <bpfk-list+bncCMuO87v4DRD70qPmBBoEGSBhCA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1PBIsK-0004HX-Vv; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:10:05 -0700
Received: by wyb38 with SMTP id 38sf759147wyb.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:09:54 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received
         :received:received-spf:received:received:received:mime-version
         :subject:from:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references:to:x-mailer
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive
         :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=uRLTWmBbIMxqhcrsCb9AX/6AaxsPjXjOV07hzs71kIk=;
        b=qPoDtYebKGWxmScckJHIop0CCmjZpOxBKDIZ1pj2ZN8kwcbGzmtkgYitYThQsABD19
         xxcUOb4P0FXA/iOZuDdPPGbkA1v5QovPg6e7jtI2c4KsaBTairWA5zSY/gF3KC0dNjcz
         S04/le6HX2hk1SzofqGb+y/H0jpuDAew8vaao=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date
         :message-id:references:to:x-mailer:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe
         :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        b=T1P3doVI7x0ELEAaX5cjcRjyNFbC3Yrr+a89ZGHGdxzBtOaj6gATJH2eEp+3lVnVmB
         dGeLQFetfo0kBeN59nLCXzkLAro0mcUGWOe62ft3pdyQQPT4dps4abiMqeTl11B3YorC
         cxxsRoaJ2qa2PUrN6vRDM80fBOQaDTm/z3rzE=
Received: by 10.216.237.9 with SMTP id x9mr1554148weq.11.1288235387745;
        Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:09:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.216.242.202 with SMTP id i52ls613395wer.0.p; Wed, 27 Oct 2010
 20:09:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.216.53.147 with SMTP id g19mr89399wec.9.1288235386572;
        Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:09:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.216.53.147 with SMTP id g19mr89398wec.9.1288235386530;
        Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:09:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from iad2.alfar.com (iad2.alfar.com [208.72.84.37])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a52si139511wer.8.2010.10.27.20.09.45;
        Wed, 27 Oct 2010 20:09:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 208.72.84.37 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of tommylee@whitlock.org) client-ip=208.72.84.37;
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by iad2.alfar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C9F67F43BA
	for <bpfk-list@googlegroups.com>; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 23:09:45 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from iad2.alfar.com ([127.0.0.1])
	by localhost (iad2.alfar.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
	with ESMTP id cSJIxd4sdARC for <bpfk-list@googlegroups.com>;
	Wed, 27 Oct 2010 23:09:45 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from macintosh-2.home (pool-173-66-69-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net [173.66.69.251])
	by iad2.alfar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 369637F43B3
	for <bpfk-list@googlegroups.com>; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 23:09:45 -0400 (EDT)
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081)
Subject: Re: [bpfk] type-3 fu'ivla with different kinds of rafsi
From: TommyLee Whitlock <tommylee@whitlock.org>
In-Reply-To: <4CC8E246.5060306@lojban.org>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 23:09:43 -0400
Message-Id: <1062F145-4F40-435E-8246-9FF99D48AC66@whitlock.org>
References: <201010260117.28780.phma@phma.optus.nu>	<201010260927.37640.phma@phma.optus.nu>	<AANLkTik2ZFgcDdqjMe6CzVzt8iz1H3fyVsz0zXsSSa8U@mail.gmail.com>	<201010270951.35522.phma@phma.optus.nu>	<20101027174136.GD5643@mercury.ccil.org>	<AANLkTi=D7h950HizWmoNPtn4=a+6L0dHA3rFKSoRmgm0@mail.gmail.com>	<4CC87E6E.8060205@lojban.org> <AANLkTin2pCpTWH5oPpvQN=50cuAJ2kkWh3Tz6D1yMZVs@mail.gmail.com> <4CC8E246.5060306@lojban.org>
To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081)
X-Original-Sender: tommylee@whitlock.org
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com:
 208.72.84.37 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain
 of tommylee@whitlock.org) smtp.mail=tommylee@whitlock.org
Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bpfk-list.googlegroups.com>
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:bpfk-list@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:bpfk-list+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list?hl=en_US>
Sender: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:bpfk-list+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list/subscribe?hl=en_US>,
 <mailto:bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Length: 2040

As Bob points out, it went WAY beyond what Gary and I originally suggested =
and, in essence, gained consonantal value. It was supposed to make things e=
asier, not more complicated.=20
tomis

On Oct 27, 2010, at 10:39 PM, Robert LeChevalier wrote:

> Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:
>> That's basically my argument. I would have opposed the change if I had
>> been there at the time, since introducing the apostrophe/x distinction
>> seems worse than the problem you were trying to solve, but I don't see
>> how we could go back on that at this point.
>=20
> Blame Tommy and Gary Burgess, who convinced me that "x" and its voiced co=
unterpart are common in the world's languages, even if not found in English=
 (we almost ended up having both the voiced and unvoiced sounds, but making=
 the voiced sound in clusters was beyond me).
>=20
> ' was never supposed to be a full consonantal sound, but rather to have j=
ust enough noticeable airflow to not be a glottal stop (which is its intend=
ed contrast, not x), and probably shorter than a typical Lojban consonant. =
 But it proved so much easier to teach by equating it to the "h" that Engli=
sh speakers thought the sound was, that we eventually gave up.  I'm not ski=
lled at languages myself, and trying to teach a distinction I can't easily =
make myself was too difficult.
>=20
> lojbab
>=20
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "BPFK" group.
> To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googl=
egroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk=
-list?hl=3Den.
>=20

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
BPFK" group.
To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googleg=
roups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-l=
ist?hl=3Den.