Received: from mail-gh0-f191.google.com ([209.85.160.191]:55403) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1ThWUp-0007Kr-SZ; Sat, 08 Dec 2012 18:20:19 -0800 Received: by mail-gh0-f191.google.com with SMTP id f1sf1105964ghb.8 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2012 18:19:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:references:from:in-reply-to:mime-version :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=WBQjMfPFQzen8wga35c/yZBgEDhB+67IHqoJy1fSW/4=; b=IjloZIZQauyo/rQIPpFEbcrxVsswpgOhoLo53BYdRxIZFAP1+iqWJ9hX2jlbK3yKvh tbFBtmxFSxHHhUpQLq1RURU/CMjDxQ7kEHfEAAAFprNAd2Ca3bRgJ0L9MGkS4jzytKsV Z59d1mURKcl8u0uiUMWMT8jRRLu7wl7egTLJdmajuaYgKFgc9kEYlyv8jm3XNQiuyXQX RLdnDmIq3CvlQ5MCQ3bSEeXROPwf/2rNJwnJaRy2nyQ8h8W11BpeKgvhoW9B22vmsTsX bxb3lpM9Y8M55f8LQ6G32zajhi4A9TCTrLIhnwga7H6t9WYHtr9Q2loFlCenpgcQj3zJ lUqA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:references:from:in-reply-to:mime-version :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=WBQjMfPFQzen8wga35c/yZBgEDhB+67IHqoJy1fSW/4=; b=SIGRsw+XptMhSpFLEEjdnH2FpoBm/Ml6TxUIzPLHdGcfPUMXHsfCjOstWs1n1dGJEI gGbresH+FOXj+EcRXaCs4dht47/TDkD0/r9MtcO/HBEv7odYOo6gHk0vTxw8KAKia1sD CHoDZfXtGqH+rwDLjnX3Lizz2rTvtTIYZrVODFjdzcEBPuM6/prOAXnkV3E6nJrm6zeA CoxHUwrhFqVnw3cn6xtpoED/9ZxHDCJNSy4vgQDuZPOrmgtlsh12sa9JCIVaUg+MZTkt djy+sx7ojEvfpBnGtt+8YSjyYUvApMc2NmddY+iNWLQ5Q1dxz5Z9hRKRAi4tXJuQK0BL cV8Q== Received: by 10.50.158.227 with SMTP id wx3mr1270785igb.2.1355019592890; Sat, 08 Dec 2012 18:19:52 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.135.41 with SMTP id pp9ls669846igb.35.gmail; Sat, 08 Dec 2012 18:19:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.172.68 with SMTP id m4mr7442128icz.1.1355019592477; Sat, 08 Dec 2012 18:19:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.96.228 with SMTP id dv4msigb; Sat, 8 Dec 2012 07:09:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.159.201 with SMTP id xe9mr2378848igb.0.1354979357950; Sat, 08 Dec 2012 07:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.159.201 with SMTP id xe9mr2378847igb.0.1354979357925; Sat, 08 Dec 2012 07:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ia0-f181.google.com (mail-ia0-f181.google.com [209.85.210.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ge7si112820igb.0.2012.12.08.07.09.17 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 08 Dec 2012 07:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.181; Received: by mail-ia0-f181.google.com with SMTP id s32so2378658iak.26 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2012 07:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.50.152.196 with SMTP id va4mr2078969igb.13.1354979357784; Sat, 08 Dec 2012 07:09:17 -0800 (PST) References: <95cdbee4-7ddc-4f7d-bb48-4591b7c3d915@googlegroups.com> <50C10003.1080806@lojban.org> <5406c1d2-ee78-4b41-ab68-06b7cf99dce7@googlegroups.com> <19b747e3-b09b-49f5-8e07-59fb8d920441@googlegroups.com> From: Daniel Brockman In-Reply-To: <19b747e3-b09b-49f5-8e07-59fb8d920441@googlegroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 16:09:13 +0100 Message-ID: <6900983173307529115@unknownmsgid> Subject: Re: [bpfk] polysemy of {nai} To: "bpfk-list@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: dbrockman@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of dbrockman@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=dbrockman@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f3b9e814c78c304d058b7be X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 8624 --e89a8f3b9e814c78c304d058b7be Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 {na'i} is in UI and it "has truth value", no? I don't have any difficulty understanding the idea of moving {nai} to UI in the long run, as {nai} is a modifier which can be applied to basically every word without changing its syntax, and as per John Cowan it can even appear on its own (I didn't know that was official). All of which fits perfecly into UI. The motivation would obviously be elimination of some redundant complexity in the grammar, making for a simpler and more flexible language? On 8 dec 2012, at 15:53, la gleki wrote: As it's still a BPFK thread my question is why did you suggest moving {nai} to UI in the long run when it shouldn't have the truth value? On Saturday, December 8, 2012 6:16:17 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 6:35 AM, la gleki > > wrote: > > > > Anyway, I want all types of negation to fit on the same scheme. > > Last time when I draw a similar scheme I could completely solve (at > least > > for myself) the problem of subjunctives in lojban. > > Now it's time for negation. > > Negation is acheved with "na" or "na'e". They both have the same > meaning, just different scopes. "na'e" can pretty much be replaced > with "me lo na" and "na" can pretty much be replaced with "na'e ke ... > ke'e be ... bei ... bei ...". > > "to'e" is not really negation, it is "opposite" or "antonym": > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposite_(semantics) > Calling it "negation" is just one of those weird Lojbanic > eccentricities. "no'e" expresses the midpoint between something and > its opposite, so it only really works with gradable antonyms. > > "na'i" is a kind of negation, although what it negates is not explicit > in the discourse. It negates a presupposition, something that is taken > for granted as true, and therefore is not expressed. So na'i says that > a sentence cannot be evaluated as either true or false because > something prior that needs to be satisfied to even make sense of the > sentence is not being satisfied. Once the presupposition is expressed > explicitly, it can be negated with "na", as usual. "na'i" just > indicates that there is something unexpressed that wants to be > negated. So "na'i" is a metalinguistic "na". > > "nai" changes the meaning of the preceding word to something with the > same function but different meaning, usually but not always an > opposite meaning. ".enai" for example is not really the opposite of > ".e" (indeed it is not clear what the opposite of ".e" would be, not > every word has a clear opposite). ".enai" is a logical connective > whose truth table is related to the truth table of ".e" in some > systematic way that can be explained using negation. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BPFK" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bpfk-list/-/zD0_g6AhdRgJ. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BPFK" group. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list?hl=en. --e89a8f3b9e814c78c304d058b7be Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
{na'i} is in UI and it "h= as truth value", no?

I don't have any dif= ficulty understanding the idea of moving {nai} to UI in the long run, as {n= ai} is a modifier which can be applied to basically every word without chan= ging its syntax, and as per John Cowan it can even appear on its own (I did= n't know that was official). All of which fits perfecly into UI.

The motivation would obviously be elimination of some redundant complex= ity in the grammar, making for a simpler and more flexible language?
<= div>
On 8 dec 2012, at 15:53, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

As it's still a BPFK thread my= question is why did you suggest moving {nai} to UI in the long run when it= shouldn't have the truth value?

On Saturday, December 8, 2012 6= :16:17 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 6:35 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Anyway, I want all types of negation to fit on the same scheme.
> Last time when I draw a similar scheme I could completely solve (a= t least
> for myself) the problem of subjunctives in lojban.
> Now it's time for negation.

Negation is acheved with "na" or "na'e". They b= oth have the same
meaning, just different scopes. "na'e" can pretty much be= replaced
with "me lo na" and "na" can pretty much be replace= d with "na'e ke ...
ke'e be ... bei ... bei ...".

"to'e" is not really negation, it is "opposite"= or "antonym":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposite_(semantics)
Calling it "negation" is just one of those weird Lojbanic
eccentricities. "no'e" expresses the midpoint between som= ething and
its opposite, so it only really works with gradable antonyms.

"na'i" is a kind of negation, although what it negates is= not explicit
in the discourse. It negates a presupposition, something that is taken
for granted as true, and therefore is not expressed. So na'i says t= hat
a sentence cannot be evaluated as either true or false because
something prior that needs to be satisfied to even make sense of the
sentence is not being satisfied. Once the presupposition is expressed
explicitly, it can be negated with "na", as usual. "na&#= 39;i" just
indicates that there is something unexpressed that wants to be
negated. So "na'i" is a metalinguistic "na".

"nai" changes the meaning of the preceding word to something = with the
same function but different meaning, usually but not always an
opposite meaning. ".enai" for example is not really the oppos= ite of
".e" (indeed it is not clear what the opposite of ".e&qu= ot; would be, not
every word has a clear opposite). ".enai" is a logical connec= tive
whose truth table is related to the truth table of ".e" in so= me
systematic way that can be explained using negation.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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