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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 05:40:53 -0800 (PST)
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [bpfk] polysemy of {nai}
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On Sunday, December 9, 2012 5:17:55 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
>
> On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 2:09 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com<javascript:>> 
> wrote: 
> > doi xorxes, I really think that {nai} shouldn't be moved anywhere. It 
> > complicates the grammar for newbies, because it makes semantics not 
> obvious. 
> > So simplifying the grammar means nothing here. 
>
> I have been a Lojbanist for I lost count of how many years, 


And I respect you.
 

> and I 
> could not tell you with any certainty, without checking with the 
> grammar, all the selma'o that can be followed with NAI and all that 
> can't. So for me there's something wrong with the arbitrary grammar of 
> NAI because I seem to be incapable of fully learning it.


Imagine a person leraning that {UInai} means the same as {to'e}.
Then ey would use BRIVLA NAI as  to'e BRIVLA.

However, in your table
BRIVLA NAI=na'e BRIVLA
This is counter-intuitive.


 

 


> > Instead I suggest retaining the grammar of {nai} as it is and create 
> > alternative solutions in CAI for each type of negation. 
>
> That wouldn't help much though. "nai" is normally "opposite", but for 
> some words it is hard to say what its opposite is, or there may be 
> nothing that could be called its opposite, so some arbitrary notion of 
> opposite needs to be imposed. Whatever word you choose to create 
> opposites will have the same problem. 
>

1. By not using {nai} we'll lose polysemy of {nai}
2. Yes, sometimes it's not possible to tell what {to'e} would mean. Then 
just don't use such constructions. It's possible to say nonsense in Lojban, 
isn't it? So why not retin place for such nonsense?
3. There are not so many places where {nai} is allowed.



> mu'o mi'e xorxes 
>

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<br><br>On Sunday, December 9, 2012 5:17:55 PM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:<blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left=
: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 2:09 AM, la gle=
ki &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"m=
hqu7cqKsm0J">gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; doi xorxes, I really think that {nai} shouldn't be moved anywhere.=
 It
<br>&gt; complicates the grammar for newbies, because it makes semantics no=
t obvious.
<br>&gt; So simplifying the grammar means nothing here.
<br>
<br>I have been a Lojbanist for I lost count of how many years, </blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>And I respect you.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">and I
<br>could not tell you with any certainty, without checking with the
<br>grammar, all the selma'o that can be followed with NAI and all that
<br>can't. So for me there's something wrong with the arbitrary grammar of
<br>NAI because I seem to be incapable of fully learning it.</blockquote><d=
iv><br></div><div>Imagine a person leraning that {UInai} means the same as =
{to'e}.</div><div>Then ey would use BRIVLA NAI<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span=
" style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span> as<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" sty=
le=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>&nbsp;to'e BRIVLA.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>However, in your table<br><table class=3D"wikitable" style=3D"color: rgb(=
0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-he=
ight: 18px;"><tbody><tr><td class=3D"wikicell" style=3D"vertical-align: top=
; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;">BRIVLA NAI</td><td class=3D"w=
ikicell" style=3D"vertical-align: top; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: col=
lapse;">=3D</td><td class=3D"wikicell" colspan=3D"3" style=3D"vertical-alig=
n: top; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;">na'e BRIVLA</td></tr></=
tbody></table><br></div><div>This is counter-intuitive.</div><div><br></div=
><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin=
-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">&nbsp;</blockq=
uote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8e=
x;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">&nbsp;</blockquote><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-le=
ft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>&gt; Instead I suggest retaining the grammar of {nai} as it is and crea=
te
<br>&gt; alternative solutions in CAI for each type of negation.
<br>
<br>That wouldn't help much though. "nai" is normally "opposite", but for
<br>some words it is hard to say what its opposite is, or there may be
<br>nothing that could be called its opposite, so some arbitrary notion of
<br>opposite needs to be imposed. Whatever word you choose to create
<br>opposites will have the same problem.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>1. By not using {nai} we'll lose polys=
emy of {nai}</div><div>2. Yes, sometimes it's not possible to tell what {to=
'e} would mean. Then just don't use such constructions. It's possible to sa=
y nonsense in Lojban, isn't it? So why not retin place for such nonsense?</=
div><div>3. There are not so many places where {nai} is allowed.</div><div>=
<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>mu'o mi'e xorxes
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

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