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[212.227.15.18]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r49si7052973eep.0.2014.05.28.11.26.32 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 28 May 2014 11:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of seladwa@gmx.de designates 212.227.15.18 as permitted sender) client-ip=212.227.15.18; Received: from [192.168.2.108] ([84.175.79.206]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx003) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Mcmmn-1X7f3302kL-00HzNu for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 20:26:32 +0200 Message-ID: <53862A5D.7060705@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 20:26:37 +0200 From: selpa'i User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bpfk] Finishing the BPFK sections References: <5383A193.3010907@gmx.de> <53847E05.1000107@gmx.de> <53850FBA.50309@gmx.de> <5385B1E2.4000409@gmx.de> <5385B6C9.7080202@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:mDCCkfG49T0yFtxvO/bi0jf6H/Br+0Kfsj6/P4wwFhOZykkKqDu 9CAp9+s1kmSCIVDKyLT1moUP5qlGNYU1ERmMNTk8slMkDViN86A0JqLcL8RXgPZlS+Hq29w kfZR//hjFzF2H6ynl1DSoEA5R1QDQRzZmYn/pLzQY1Y8BjTKp+ViDF6HDSUXCjgO+Q8pexW DUD+D4uqC/08+zl0jL14g== X-Original-Sender: seladwa@gmx.de X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of seladwa@gmx.de designates 212.227.15.18 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=seladwa@gmx.de Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 2518 la xalbo cu cusku di'e > I'd like to see some of the Non-Contact Spatials spelled out a little > more clearly. In particular, I think the intention is that {ri'u ko'a > broda} assumes that {ko'a} has an orientation, and that the event of > {broda}-ing is to {ko'a}'s right, and that the speaker's location and > orientation are irrelevant, but that point is not entirely clear from > the definition as stated. To me it's not about the facing of the tagged sumti. Some things do not even have an intrinsic orientation. A tree has no clearly identifyable front, yet something can be in front of the tree from a certain point of view. > Same question for {ca'u} and {ti'a}. "In front of X" can mean "between > me and X" ("a shadow passed in front of the moon"), or it could mean "in > the direction that X is facing". Both should be expressible, and the > definitions need to be unambiguously one or the other. Both are expressible. {ca'u} unambiguously means the former to me, but it's not necessarily between X and *me*. It's in front of X as seen from a certain frame of reference or reference point. lo ctino cu pagre ca'u lo lunra "A shadow passed in front of the moon." This doesn't specify from what direction we're looking at the situation (at the moon), but just as with other tenses, this implicit reference point tends to be the here and now of the speaker unless context suggests otherwise. We can of course be explicit and use {ki}, which sets the space-time frame of reference. ki mi lo gerku cu denpa ri'u lo tricu "From where I am, the dog is waiting to the right of the tree." This expands directly to: lo nu lo gerku cu denpa cu pritu lo tricu mi "The event of the dog waiting is to the right of the tree from me." For all tenses, {broda TENSE ko'e} is {lo nu broda cu TENSE_SELBRI ko'e}, and tenses based on ternary predicates which involve a frame of reference additionally use {ki} to mark that frame of reference (e.g. {za}, {zo'i}, {vi}, {ni'a}, ...). I agree that clarifying this somehow in the definitions would be useful. mi'e la selpa'i mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.