Received: from mail-qa0-f56.google.com ([209.85.216.56]:51079)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.80.1)
	(envelope-from <bpfk-list+bncBCK7BH4HXIGRBQ4IXCOAKGQEQITDH4Q@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1WrsPh-0000Wb-TL; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 10:22:34 -0700
Received: by mail-qa0-f56.google.com with SMTP id cm18sf1072605qab.21
        for <multiple recipients>; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 10:22:11 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive
         :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=tDdfyZc/iijL4vRzexXluE9XHj3taz4zNQq/huXK8+4=;
        b=C6RvVdAoIRQqXTBZRWKixqPGaKS/2zd22XMfBcejM2kFBrsOqrd/OkCCgPu6cIJltc
         RMMBRLTHnZ9Io9h39SqFTUTkcDrBi7IUHjTyQ2mz5ON0n+H/CutqCOyVm/VmUWGca7IX
         47MoI0focpF53TuPDwvwuUnUqRvDKV/qnHV/vxMh7J6IKgUFiQDjSUPAz3ExyIc4Y40R
         Vi01WOBgZoBynjWtgdgT7mKVKm3Al269EknSSPPewFFNS58LRFckCj6ThxNWgwlxGzjc
         KaW3rNiM/rqKRnSP9WOoZ3f1BvkvSNa2uaEro/KkCCRhgD9i/gl/jSgN9e80LHzcY5MP
         7pFQ==
X-Received: by 10.50.44.37 with SMTP id b5mr514769igm.16.1401816131299;
        Tue, 03 Jun 2014 10:22:11 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.50.40.103 with SMTP id w7ls384015igk.15.canary; Tue, 03 Jun
 2014 10:22:11 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 10.68.137.99 with SMTP id qh3mr16716988pbb.2.1401816131020;
        Tue, 03 Jun 2014 10:22:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ve0-x234.google.com (mail-ve0-x234.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c01::234])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id pr8si945897vdb.1.2014.06.03.10.22.10
        for <bpfk-list@googlegroups.com>
        (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
        Tue, 03 Jun 2014 10:22:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of adamlopresto@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c01::234;
Received: by mail-ve0-f180.google.com with SMTP id db12so7376975veb.11
        for <bpfk-list@googlegroups.com>; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 10:22:10 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 10.58.29.234 with SMTP id n10mr38691494veh.16.1401816130868;
 Tue, 03 Jun 2014 10:22:10 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.58.58.10 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 10:21:50 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <538A252F.6060204@gmx.de>
References: <538A252F.6060204@gmx.de>
From: Adam Lopresto <adamlopresto@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 12:21:50 -0500
Message-ID: <CABM8Vqd-eKE69bZ7-k4+sdA8pYe6kD6wghSoTjie6VQnh1mpYA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bpfk] BPFK section: TAhE (ta'e vs na'o)
To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: adamlopresto@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com;       spf=pass
 (google.com: domain of adamlopresto@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::234
 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=adamlopresto@gmail.com;       dkim=pass
 header.i=@gmail.com;       dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com
Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bpfk-list.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list/post>, <mailto:bpfk-list@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bpfk-list+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list>
Sender: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list/subscribe>, <mailto:bpfk-list+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list/subscribe>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+972099695765+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bacc234855da604faf1c06f
X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-)
X-Spam_score: -1.9
X-Spam_score_int: -18
X-Spam_bar: -
Content-Length: 6497

--047d7bacc234855da604faf1c06f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I'm not quite decided on {ta'e}, although it seems that the habitually
meaning is worth preserving, unless there's some overwhelming evidence from
usage indicating otherwise.

In my opinion, trying to treat all TAhE in the same way when used as
sumtcita isn't worthwhile. In particular, I think that {di'i} as a sumtcita
is *far* more useful for tagging the frequency (the interval between
occurrences) instead of the general interval over which the whole thing
lasts. If you want "regularly for three years", you can get that with {di'i
ca lo nanca be li ci}, but if you want "regularly, once every three years",
then that should be {di'i lo nanca be li ci}. It's an argument from
pragmatism over regularity, but I think it's a meaningful one.


On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 1:53 PM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:

> The TAhE section is now more or less ready for voting. You can find it
> here:
>
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Tense+Interval
>
> I also added the following comment about {ta'e}:
>
> "The sense of "habit" is commonly ignored in usage in favor of a more
> general word indicating that the event is common/normal/ordinary. Otherwise
> it would make little sense to use it for events that don't involve an
> agent. The difference between {ta'e}'s usage and the intended meaning of
> {na'o} is almost undistinguishable as things stand. Current usage has
> {ta'e} as {fi'o jai ze'a fadni} and {na'o} is almost never used."
>
> It seems the distinction between {ta'e} and {na'o} has never been very
> clear. I remember some very old jboske threads about it.
>
> This needs to be resolved.
>
> mi'e la selpa'i mu'o
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "BPFK" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BPFK" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--047d7bacc234855da604faf1c06f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;m not quite decided on {ta&#39;e}, although it seems=
 that the habitually meaning is worth preserving, unless there&#39;s some o=
verwhelming evidence from usage indicating otherwise.=C2=A0<div><br></div><=
div>

In my opinion, trying to treat all TAhE in the same way when used as sumtci=
ta isn&#39;t worthwhile. In particular, I think that {di&#39;i} as a sumtci=
ta is <i>far</i> more useful for tagging the frequency (the interval betwee=
n occurrences) instead of the general interval over which the whole thing l=
asts. If you want &quot;regularly for three years&quot;, you can get that w=
ith {di&#39;i ca lo nanca be li ci}, but if you want &quot;regularly, once =
every three years&quot;, then that should be {di&#39;i lo nanca be li ci}. =
It&#39;s an argument from pragmatism over regularity, but I think it&#39;s =
a meaningful one.</div>

</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat,=
 May 31, 2014 at 1:53 PM, selpa&#39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:seladwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<b=
r><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

The TAhE section is now more or less ready for voting. You can find it here=
:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Tense+Interval" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/<u></u>BPFK+Section%3A+Tense+Interv=
al</a><br>
<br>
I also added the following comment about {ta&#39;e}:<br>
<br>
&quot;The sense of &quot;habit&quot; is commonly ignored in usage in favor =
of a more general word indicating that the event is common/normal/ordinary.=
 Otherwise it would make little sense to use it for events that don&#39;t i=
nvolve an agent. The difference between {ta&#39;e}&#39;s usage and the inte=
nded meaning of {na&#39;o} is almost undistinguishable as things stand. Cur=
rent usage has {ta&#39;e} as {fi&#39;o jai ze&#39;a fadni} and {na&#39;o} i=
s almost never used.&quot;<br>


<br>
It seems the distinction between {ta&#39;e} and {na&#39;o} has never been v=
ery clear. I remember some very old jboske threads about it.<br>
<br>
This needs to be resolved.<br>
<br>
mi&#39;e la selpa&#39;i mu&#39;o<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#8888=
88"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;BPFK&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bpfk-list%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=
=3D"_blank">bpfk-list+unsubscribe@<u></u>googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:bpfk-list@googlegrou=
ps.com" target=3D"_blank">bpfk-list@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/<u></u>group/bpfk-list</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/<u></u>optout</a>.<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;BPFK&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bpfk-list=
+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:bpfk-list@googlegrou=
ps.com">bpfk-list@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list">ht=
tp://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--047d7bacc234855da604faf1c06f--