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Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 15:15:18 +0200
From: Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>
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Subject: [bpfk] {gunma}, {selcmi} and gadri definitions
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coi me BPFK

Below are the formal definitions of the {l=E2=80=A2i}/{l=E2=80=A2'i} gadri,=
 as they can=20
be found on the BPFK gadri page=20
<http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+gadri>:

loi [PA] broda      lo gunma be lo [PA] broda
lei [PA] broda      lo gunma be le [PA] broda
lai [PA] broda      lo gunma be la [PA] broda
loi PA sumti        lo gunma be lo PA /sumti/
lei PA sumti        lo gunma be le PA /sumti/
lai PA sumti        lo gunma be la PA /sumti/

lo'i [PA] broda     lo selcmi be lo [PA] broda
le'i [PA] broda     lo selcmi be le [PA] broda
la'i [PA] broda     lo selcmi be la [PA] broda
lo'i PA sumti       lo selcmi be lo PA /sumti/
le'i PA sumti       lo selcmi be le PA /sumti/
la'i PA sumti       lo selcmi be la PA /sumti/



Now, here is a quote from "gadri: an unofficial commentary from a=20
logical point of view", section 3=20
<http://www.lojban.org/tiki/gadri%3A+an+unofficial+commentary+from+a+logica=
l+point+of+view#Definition_of_gadri>:

According to jbovlaste <http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/selcmi>,=20
{selcmi} is defined as follows:

x1 selcmi x2        =3Dca'e        x1 se cmima ro lo me x2 me'u e no lo na=
=20
me x2

If we accept this definition, a set referred to by=20
{lo'i/le'i/la'i}-sumti consists of only the referent of {lo/le/la [PA]=20
broda} or {lo/le/la PA sumti}. Contrastively, if we define it as=20
{selcmi}=3D{se cmima}, the set may include what is/are other than the=20
referent of {lo/le/la [PA] broda} or {lo/le/la PA sumti}. It is not yet=20
officially determined which interpretation is to be accepted.//



As far as I know, gunma2 and cmima1 are non-exhaustive, in other words=20
they do not necessarily show all the members of gunma1 and cmima2=20
respectively. (Correct me if I'm wrong!)

I don't like very much the idea of using the sel- rafsi in a=20
non-compositional way, for making lujvo of the form {selbroda} whose=20
meaning cannot be derived from {se broda}. It seems there's a pretty=20
wide implicit agreement that the sel/ter/vel/xel rafsi should be regular=20
(semantically compositional).

So, I think the BPFK should make an official decision on whether {loi=20
broda}/{lo'i broda} might include things that do not broda among their=20
referents, and clarify the formal definitions accordingly if necessary.

I would expect them to never include things that do not broda. If so,=20
the definition should probably be modified as shown below:

=E2=80=A2 loi [PA] broda  =3D  lo gunma be lo [PA] broda .e no drata be ri
=E2=80=A2 lo'i [PA] broda  =3D  lo se cmima be lo [PA] broda .e no drata be=
 ri

What do you think?

mu'o mi'e la .ilmen.


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<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8=
">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    coi me BPFK<br>
    <br>
    Below are the formal definitions of the {l=E2=80=A2i}/{l=E2=80=A2'i} ga=
dri, as they
    can be found on <a
      href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+gadri">the BPFK
      gadri page</a>:<br>
    <br>
    <table style=3D"border: solid 1px; background-color: #FFFFBB"
      border=3D"1" cellpadding=3D"8" cellspacing=3D"2" width=3D"100%">
      <tbody>
        <tr>
          <td valign=3D"top"><font face=3D"monospace">loi [PA] broda =C2=A0=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 lo
              gunma be lo [PA] broda<br>
              lei [PA] broda =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 lo gunma be le [PA] broda<=
br>
              lai [PA] broda =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 lo gunma be la [PA] broda<=
br>
              loi PA sumti =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 lo gunma be lo PA <i>=
sumti</i><br>
              lei PA sumti =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 lo gunma be le PA <i>=
sumti</i><br>
              lai PA sumti =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 lo gunma be la PA <i>=
sumti</i><br>
            </font> <font face=3D"monospace"><br>
              lo'i [PA] broda =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0lo selcmi be lo [PA] broda=
<br>
              le'i [PA] broda =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0lo selcmi be le [PA] broda=
<br>
              la'i [PA] broda =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0lo selcmi be la [PA] broda=
<br>
              lo'i PA sumti =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 lo selcmi be lo PA <i>sumt=
i</i><br>
              le'i PA sumti =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 lo selcmi be le PA <i>sumt=
i</i><br>
              la'i PA sumti =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 lo selcmi be la PA <i>sumt=
i</i></font></td>
        </tr>
      </tbody>
    </table>
    <br>
    <br>
    Now, here is a quote from <a
href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/gadri%3A+an+unofficial+commentary+from+a=
+logical+point+of+view#Definition_of_gadri">"gadri:
      an unofficial commentary from a logical point of view", section 3</a>=
:<br>
    <br>
    <table style=3D"border: solid 1px; background-color: #FFFFBB"
      border=3D"1" cellpadding=3D"8" cellspacing=3D"2" width=3D"100%">
      <tbody>
        <tr>
          <td valign=3D"top">According to <a
              href=3D"http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/selcmi">jbovlaste</a=
>,
            {selcmi} is defined as follows:<br>
            <br>
            x1 selcmi x2 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =3Dca'e =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 x1 se cmima ro lo me x2
            me'u e no lo na me x2<br>
            <br>
            If we accept this definition, a set referred to by
            {lo'i/le'i/la'i}-sumti consists of only the referent of
            {lo/le/la [PA] broda} or {lo/le/la PA sumti}. Contrastively,
            if we define it as {selcmi}=3D{se cmima}, the set may include
            what is/are other than the referent of {lo/le/la [PA] broda}
            or {lo/le/la PA sumti}. It is not yet officially determined
            which interpretation is to be accepted.<font
              face=3D"monospace"><i></i></font></td>
        </tr>
      </tbody>
    </table>
    <br>
    <br>
    As far as I know, gunma2 and cmima1 are non-exhaustive, in other
    words they do not necessarily show all the members of gunma1 and
    cmima2 respectively. (Correct me if I'm wrong!)<br>
    <br>
    I don't like very much the idea of using the sel- rafsi in a
    non-compositional way, for making lujvo of the form {selbroda} whose
    meaning cannot be derived from {se broda}. It seems there's a pretty
    wide implicit agreement that the sel/ter/vel/xel rafsi should be
    regular (semantically compositional).<br>
    <br>
    So, I think the BPFK should make an official decision on whether
    {loi broda}/{lo'i broda} might include things that do not broda
    among their referents, and clarify the formal definitions
    accordingly if necessary.<br>
    <br>
    I would expect them to never include things that do not broda. If
    so, the definition should probably be modified as shown below:<br>
    <br>
    =E2=80=A2 loi [PA] broda=C2=A0 =3D=C2=A0 lo gunma be lo [PA] broda .e n=
o drata be ri<br>
    =E2=80=A2 lo'i [PA] broda=C2=A0 =3D=C2=A0 lo se cmima be lo [PA] broda =
.e no drata be ri<br>
    <br>
    What do you think?<br>
    <br>
    mu'o mi'e la .ilmen.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

<p></p>

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