Received: from mail-pa0-f59.google.com ([209.85.220.59]:40984) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XRMJD-0000D0-FG; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 07:22:16 -0700 Received: by mail-pa0-f59.google.com with SMTP id kq14sf272759pab.4 for ; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 07:22:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=rc+QXAvWNGTYJCd1OanSUZM4j0unBqokyV7IerVlu0o=; b=uzXNARbpsD3S8o17oWHvfQWvtbPEPamTGMNoo4KiQr4VUZg2iTv8DUEGCkqz1gGi52 gB1byuP3vengDnpFrgIawyRVnp99ndhtPtk2QCzpciyUbRCaCe88PHN5R6e/HA3y1HjA jpCdUTeKlU/Ija4zA+BwwPqVYCc92SGVyrcQfVxE6RTLnAVtcfFzuLYvMBJDLUMT6qKb 7vF11mC07lvJdhYMklBefM0gNuWiAy1+PyYrq8PURxKwLk/X+LAnQFechnYxO4a4rYup YHJjpaCqYtk8e6xcTf7p1r5Ep1dm/cy0AfwOuUzoVD9b6AAhC8NHE57ISFCiwmxhLacU NnRw== X-Received: by 10.140.43.166 with SMTP id e35mr8352qga.27.1410272528627; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 07:22:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.49.235 with SMTP id q98ls2280952qga.91.gmail; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 07:22:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.8.74 with SMTP id 50mr9505024yhq.42.1410272528406; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 07:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x22c.google.com (mail-qc0-x22c.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i4si2448979qcm.0.2014.09.09.07.22.08 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Sep 2014 07:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22c; Received: by mail-qc0-f172.google.com with SMTP id o8so17200525qcw.17 for ; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 07:22:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.43.180 with SMTP id e49mr19794811qga.76.1410272528277; Tue, 09 Sep 2014 07:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.50.167 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Sep 2014 07:22:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <540EFD66.2080509@gmail.com> <540F0670.5060804@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 08:22:08 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bpfk] {gunma}, {selcmi} and gadri definitions From: Jonathan Jones To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113a7a4815c9ab0502a2a9c2 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 8931 --001a113a7a4815c9ab0502a2a9c2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 sa ko'a poi On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > I suggest that "e no lo na me x2" is merely a clarification, as it makes > no sense to say that the x1, which is the set of things the x2 refers to, > could contain things which are not part of that set. > > xu ko'a me lo bakni cu se cmima lo grute > > > On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Gleki Arxokuna > wrote: > >> I disagree. I suggest that SEL- lujvo are always jvajvo, no cimjvo. >> The same goes for -gau, -zu'e, -selja'e, some other rafsi. >> >> 2014-09-09 17:53 GMT+04:00 And Rosta : >> >>> Ilmen, On 09/09/2014 14:15: >>> >>>> I don't like very much the idea of using the sel- rafsi in a >>>> non-compositional way, for making lujvo of the form {selbroda} whose >>>> meaning cannot be derived from {se broda}. It seems there's a pretty >>>> wide implicit agreement that the sel/ter/vel/xel rafsi should be >>>> regular (semantically compositional). >>>> >>> >>> That dislike and agreement strike me as not very rational. The principal >>> grammatical function of lujvo relative to phrases is to signal >>> noncompositionality -- a sense other than, and typically more specific >>> than, the sense of the unlujvoized phrasal counterpart. A secondary >>> function of lujvo is that sometimes they're shorter, but given that brevity >>> is only a marginal consideration in Lojban design, the key grammatical >>> characteristic of lujvohood is noncompositionality, with the rafsi having >>> merely a kind of mnemonic function. >>> >>> --And. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "BPFK" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "BPFK" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a113a7a4815c9ab0502a2a9c2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
sa ko'a poi

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Jonathan Jones= <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
I suggest that "e no lo na me x2" is mere= ly a clarification, as it makes no sense to say that the x1, which is the s= et of things the x2 refers to, could contain things which are not part of t= hat set.

xu ko'a me lo bakni cu se cmima lo grute


On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.= is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
I disagree. I suggest that SEL- lujvo are always jvajvo,= no cimjvo.
The same goes for -gau, -zu'e, -selja'e, some other= rafsi.

2014-09-09 17:53 GMT+04:00 And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>:
Ilmen, On 09/09/2014 14:15:=
I don't like very much the idea of using the sel- rafsi in a
non-compositional way, for making lujvo of the form {selbroda} whose
meaning cannot be derived from {se broda}. It seems there's a pretty wide implicit agreement that the sel/ter/vel/xel rafsi should be
regular (semantically compositional).

 That dislike and agreement strike me as not very rational. The principal gr= ammatical function of lujvo relative to phrases is to signal noncomposition= ality -- a sense other than, and typically more specific than, the sense of= the unlujvoized phrasal counterpart. A secondary function of lujvo is that= sometimes they're shorter, but given that brevity is only a marginal c= onsideration in Lojban design, the key grammatical characteristic of lujvoh= ood is noncompositionality, with the rafsi having merely a kind of mnemonic= function.

--And.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;BPFK" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.<= br>
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do = zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )


--
mu'o mi'e .aion= ys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;BPFK" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list= +unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at ht= tp://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a113a7a4815c9ab0502a2a9c2--