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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 23:08:50 -0400
From: Alex Burka <durka42@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [bpfk] {ro}, existential import and De Morgan
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I understand {ro broda} to be the same as {ro da poi broda}, whereas {ro lo broda} is the one that's different (= {ro da poi me lo broda}). Not to put words in your mouth, but at least once in 2002[1] you agreed. 

mu'o mi'e la durka

1: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/lojban/Akan3w4mnuw/9AHz8s15dNsJ 


On Friday, October 17, 2014 at 9:14 PM, John Cowan wrote:

> Riley Martinez-Lynch scripsit:
> 
> > Which is to say, {ro} has existential import. This is the position of 
> > classic/Aristotelian logic, but not modern logic.
> > 
> 
> 
> As pc explained it to me, Aristotelian and Fregean (modern) logic don't
> actually contradict one another in this area. However, the *translation*
> from Aristotelian "All As are Bs" to Fregean "For all x, if A(x) then
> B(x)" is not quite truth-preserving. "All A is B" is taken to be false
> if there are no As, whereas "For all x, if A(x) then B(x)" is vacuously
> true if there does not exist x such that A(x). Lojban expresses each
> of these differently: the Aristotelian claim is "ro broda cu brode"
> whereas the Fregean claim is "ro da poi broda cu brode".
> 
> Now these can be reconciled in their interpretation if we assume that
> "ro" has existential import: then "ro broda cu brode" requires that
> there are brodas, whereas "ro da poi broda cu brode" requires only that
> there are das. The latter is true except in a completely empty universe,
> which is not really worth talking about.
> 
> > Can anyone show me where and how this problem was resolved? Failing that, 
> > would anyone care to take this up and once and for all settle the matter?
> > 
> 
> 
> In answer to both questions: probably not.
> 
> -- 
> John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org (mailto:cowan@ccil.org)
> What has four pairs of pants, lives in Philadelphia,
> and it never rains but it pours?
> --Rufus T. Firefly
> 
> -- 
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                <div>
                    I understand {ro broda} to be the same as {ro da poi br=
oda}, whereas {ro lo broda} is the one that's different (=3D {ro da poi me =
lo broda}). Not to put words in your mouth, but at least once in 2002[1] yo=
u agreed.
                </div><div><br></div><div>mu'o mi'e la durka</div><div><br>=
</div><div>1:&nbsp;https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/lojban/Akan3w4mnuw=
/9AHz8s15dNsJ</div>
                <div></div>
                =20
                <p style=3D"color: #A0A0A8;">On Friday, October 17, 2014 at=
 9:14 PM, John Cowan wrote:</p>
                <blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"border-left-style:solid;=
border-width:1px;margin-left:0px;padding-left:10px;">
                    <span><div><div><div>Riley Martinez-Lynch scripsit:</di=
v><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div>Which is to say, {ro} =
has existential import. This is the position of </div><div>classic/Aristote=
lian logic, but not modern logic.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>As pc explained it to me, Aristotelian and Fregean (modern) logic don't<=
/div><div>actually contradict one another in this area.  However, the *tran=
slation*</div><div>from Aristotelian "All As are Bs" to Fregean "For all x,=
 if A(x) then</div><div>B(x)" is not quite truth-preserving.  "All A is B" =
is taken to be false</div><div>if there are no As, whereas "For all x, if A=
(x) then B(x)" is vacuously</div><div>true if there does not exist x such t=
hat A(x).  Lojban expresses each</div><div>of these differently: the Aristo=
telian claim is "ro broda cu brode"</div><div>whereas the Fregean claim is =
"ro da poi broda cu brode".</div><div><br></div><div>Now these can be recon=
ciled in their interpretation if we assume that</div><div>"ro" has existent=
ial import: then "ro broda cu brode" requires that</div><div>there are brod=
as, whereas "ro da poi broda cu brode" requires only that</div><div>there a=
re das.  The latter is true except in a completely empty universe,</div><di=
v>which is not really worth talking about.</div><div><br></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><div>Can anyone show me where and how this problem was r=
esolved? Failing that, </div><div>would anyone care to take this up and onc=
e and for all settle the matter?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>In answer to both questions:  probably not.</div><div><br></div><div>-- <=
/div><div>John Cowan          <a href=3D"http://www.ccil.org/~cowan">http:/=
/www.ccil.org/~cowan</a>        <a href=3D"mailto:cowan@ccil.org">cowan@cci=
l.org</a></div><div>What has four pairs of pants, lives in Philadelphia,</d=
iv><div>and it never rains but it pours?</div><div>        --Rufus T. Firef=
ly</div><div><br></div><div>-- </div><div>You received this message because=
 you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BPFK" group.</div><div>To unsubsc=
ribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to <a=
 href=3D"mailto:bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bpfk-list+unsubscri=
be@googlegroups.com</a>.</div><div>To post to this group, send email to <a =
href=3D"mailto:bpfk-list@googlegroups.com">bpfk-list@googlegroups.com</a>.<=
/div><div>Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/bpf=
k-list">http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list</a>.</div><div>For more op=
tions, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">https://groups.=
google.com/d/optout</a>.</div></div></div></span>
                =20
                =20
                =20
                =20
                </blockquote>
                =20
                <div>
                    <br>
                </div>
           =20

<p></p>

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