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Subject: Re: [bpfk] ki'ecu'i - ki'enai
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On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 4:39 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
wrote:

> In
>
> i mi si'unai mo'u tolcri ki'ecu'i la alis
> I found myself, no thanks to Alice.
>

"ki'e" is a vocative, not a BAI, so it would be used to address Alice, not
to say something about her. (so something like "No thanks to you, Alice")
 "si'u nai la alis" would work for "with no help from Alice".

{ki'enai} wont be appropriate imo, although imo in some situations "no
> thanks to you" can mean {ki'enai}
>
> "It's no thanks to you that I arrive on time"
> Here, it could mean that the other person's actions might even have
> resulted in the person arriving late, but despite those actions, the person
> still managed to arrive on time.
>

Maybe in the example, it was Alice that hid what you were looking for, so
you found it despite her actions to prevent you from finding it.

However, the phrase "Isn't "resentment"/"bitterness" the polar opposite of
> thanks/gratitude?
> " on http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Vocatives
>
> makes sense.
> For now, I voted against this page.
>

What's your suggested new wording for the definition? "ki'e cu'i" and "ki'e
nai" would both be somewhat impolite, and I don't think they have seen much
usage.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 4:39 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">In=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>i mi si&#39;unai mo&#39;u tolcri ki&#3=
9;ecu&#39;i la alis</div><div>I found myself, no thanks to Alice.<br></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>&quot;ki&#39;e&quot; is a vocative, =
not a BAI, so it would be used to address Alice, not to say something about=
 her. (so something like &quot;No thanks to you, Alice&quot;) =C2=A0&quot;s=
i&#39;u nai la alis&quot; would work for &quot;with no help from Alice&quot=
;.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div>{ki&#39;enai} wont be appropriate imo, although imo in some situatio=
ns &quot;no thanks to you&quot; can mean {ki&#39;enai}</div><div><br></div>=
<div><div>&quot;It&#39;s no thanks to you that I arrive on time&quot;</div>=
<div>Here,=C2=A0it could mean that the other person&#39;s actions might eve=
n have resulted in the person arriving late, but despite those actions, the=
 person still managed to arrive on time.</div></div></div></blockquote><div=
><br></div><div>Maybe in the example, it was Alice that hid what you were l=
ooking for, so you found it despite her actions to prevent you from finding=
 it.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div>However, the phrase &quot;Isn&#39;t &quot;resentment&quot;/&quot;b=
itterness&quot; the polar opposite of thanks/gratitude?</div><div>&quot; on=
=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Vocatives" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Vocatives</a><br><=
br>makes sense.</div><div>For now, I voted against this page.</div></div></=
blockquote><div><br></div><div>What&#39;s your suggested new wording for th=
e definition? &quot;ki&#39;e cu&#39;i&quot; and &quot;ki&#39;e nai&quot; wo=
uld both be somewhat impolite, and I don&#39;t think they have seen much us=
age.</div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div>=
</div></div></div>

<p></p>

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