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Subject: Re: [bpfk] ki'ecu'i - ki'enai
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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2014-11-21 23:44 GMT+03:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:

>
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 4:39 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <
> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In
>>
>> i mi si'unai mo'u tolcri ki'ecu'i la alis
>> I found myself, no thanks to Alice.
>>
>
> "ki'e" is a vocative, not a BAI, so it would be used to address Alice, no=
t
> to say something about her. (so something like "No thanks to you, Alice")
>

oh ok, indeed.


>  "si'u nai la alis" would work for "with no help from Alice".
>
> {ki'enai} wont be appropriate imo, although imo in some situations "no
>> thanks to you" can mean {ki'enai}
>>
>> "It's no thanks to you that I arrive on time"
>> Here, it could mean that the other person's actions might even have
>> resulted in the person arriving late, but despite those actions, the per=
son
>> still managed to arrive on time.
>>
>
> Maybe in the example, it was Alice that hid what you were looking for, so
> you found it despite her actions to prevent you from finding it.
>
> However, the phrase "Isn't "resentment"/"bitterness" the polar opposite o=
f
>> thanks/gratitude?
>> " on http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Vocatives
>>
>> makes sense.
>> For now, I voted against this page.
>>
>
> What's your suggested new wording for the definition?
>

I'm not sure every COI or UI has a single word/construct in English
apropariate in all contexts. For ki'enai:

mi jai lerci ki'enai la kevin - I'm late and that's because of you, bastard
Kevin.

"ki'e cu'i" and "ki'e nai" would both be somewhat impolite, and I don't
> think they have seen much usage.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2014-11-21 23:44 GMT+03:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span class=3D"">On Fri=
, Nov 21, 2014 at 4:39 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"lt=
r">In=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>i mi si&#39;unai mo&#39;u tolcri ki&#39;ecu&=
#39;i la alis</div><div>I found myself, no thanks to Alice.<br></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>&quot;ki&#39;e&quot; is a vocative,=
 not a BAI, so it would be used to address Alice, not to say something abou=
t her. (so something like &quot;No thanks to you, Alice&quot;)</div></div><=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>oh ok, indeed.</div><div>=C2=A0=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div> =C2=A0&quot;si&#39;u nai la alis&quo=
t; would work for &quot;with no help from Alice&quot;.=C2=A0</div><span cla=
ss=3D""><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
>{ki&#39;enai} wont be appropriate imo, although imo in some situations &qu=
ot;no thanks to you&quot; can mean {ki&#39;enai}</div><div><br></div><div><=
div>&quot;It&#39;s no thanks to you that I arrive on time&quot;</div><div>H=
ere,=C2=A0it could mean that the other person&#39;s actions might even have=
 resulted in the person arriving late, but despite those actions, the perso=
n still managed to arrive on time.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br><=
/div></span><div>Maybe in the example, it was Alice that hid what you were =
looking for, so you found it despite her actions to prevent you from findin=
g it.=C2=A0</div><span class=3D""><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>However, the phrase &quot;Isn&#39;t &quot;resent=
ment&quot;/&quot;bitterness&quot; the polar opposite of thanks/gratitude?</=
div><div>&quot; on=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%=
3A+Vocatives" target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+=
Vocatives</a><br><br>makes sense.</div><div>For now, I voted against this p=
age.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>What&#39;s your sug=
gested new wording for the definition?</div></div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>I&#39;m not sure every COI or UI has a single word/cons=
truct in English apropariate in all contexts. For ki&#39;enai:</div><div><b=
r></div><div>mi jai lerci ki&#39;enai la kevin - I&#39;m late and that&#39;=
s because of you, bastard Kevin.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><div> &quot;ki&#39;e cu&#39;i&quot; and &quot;ki&#39;e nai&quot; would=
 both be somewhat impolite, and I don&#39;t think they have seen much usage=
.</div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><span class=3D"HOE=
nZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div></font></span></div></div></div=
><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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