Received: from mail-lb0-f191.google.com ([209.85.217.191]:64084) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XnWXR-0006t3-F5; Sun, 09 Nov 2014 09:44:38 -0800 Received: by mail-lb0-f191.google.com with SMTP id w7sf541102lbi.28 for ; Sun, 09 Nov 2014 09:44:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=/Dga23ES/7G9HxWbcKwjh1oYdUHpFts52gY4pBUoB+o=; b=T8MV5qguUSe0Z/Vw2S8vr/HP/GMqP1/IqvK1s5uZOV5ccD4/qT126foOS7EaqeVn0r Q8uk45UyWUASqzD4OYvAPrMHg6vpq8vp1pLbGwxBl8bK9bWi4cfVUaTKOX/0iE+8zzFq wecL4N5qyt9wSOCiwMvcpHr8o8FxOp8BH9rQfhZwNSGK9gBY/eWN/D24KvLhDJ4tTydY 2SCU53gFkC9tAR94lqiNd3GRIXN16fup+D9ycw5JcxOVybKgd3aypwMMxq8wf5uTUxhc OAvm3IZUR6A1HgXb7iShpZbCKy1GVGgCkUvolVFwoFPpc4xbpDBtuWpxcYU9dIHsLz3j 87Qg== X-Received: by 10.180.149.135 with SMTP id ua7mr65004wib.17.1415555066033; Sun, 09 Nov 2014 09:44:26 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.103.3 with SMTP id fs3ls75383wib.47.gmail; Sun, 09 Nov 2014 09:44:25 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.180.74.196 with SMTP id w4mr3034807wiv.7.1415555065622; Sun, 09 Nov 2014 09:44:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x231.google.com (mail-wg0-x231.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c00::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n9si593839wix.0.2014.11.09.09.44.25 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Nov 2014 09:44:25 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::231; Received: by mail-wg0-f49.google.com with SMTP id x13so7149975wgg.36 for ; Sun, 09 Nov 2014 09:44:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.149.162 with SMTP id ub2mr24032349wib.79.1415555065499; Sun, 09 Nov 2014 09:44:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.103.65 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Nov 2014 09:44:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <544CB576.2070503@gmail.com> <544CF7D1.9050300@gmail.com> <544D197D.5000709@gmail.com> <20141109033347.GO6360@mercury.ccil.org> <49D423038AB048B3832946E4D73A58D8@gmail.com> <20141109055359.GA4868@mercury.ccil.org> <20141109153748.GD4868@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2014 20:44:25 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bpfk] camxes and syllabification in zi'evla From: Gleki Arxokuna To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c37dfcd6d70e05077098a0 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 7026 --001a11c37dfcd6d70e05077098a0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This wont matter if there are none in the corpus. In fact jbofi'e/camxes discrepancy already invalidated a lot of fu'ivla 2014-11-09 20:08 GMT+03:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > > On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Gleki Arxokuna > wrote: >> >> 2014-11-09 18:37 GMT+03:00 John Cowan : >> >>> >>> I was actually thinking of something more radical: replace all syllabi= c >>> consonants with yC throughout the language. Ivan Derzhanski argued for >>> this long ago, and I now think he was correct: they reduce readability >>> and make things more awkward. Syllabic consonants were introduced by >>> JCB, and I think we should have discarded them for Lojban; Loglan wound >>> up being more dependent on them, and writing them double. >>> >> >> If this change can be easily explained (e.g. "replace all syllabic >> consonants to {yr}") then it's okay. Existing texts will be assumed to b= e >> synonymous to these amended words just like {klamygau} is a full synonym= of >> {klagau} (except the sounding and the text itself). >> > > Doing that won't work in general for consonantal syllables in places othe= r > than in the type-3 hyphen. For example the currently valid fu'ivla > "mutcmle" (mut,cm,le) would turn into a lujvo "mutcymle". Such fu'ivla ar= e > rare, but I'm sure there are already a few in jbovlaste. Examples like th= is > that create actual possible words can only happen with Cm consonantal > syllables, because "m" is the only syllabic consonant that can start a CC > onset. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c37dfcd6d70e05077098a0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This wont matter if there are none in the corpus. In fact = jbofi'e/camxes discrepancy already invalidated a lot of fu'ivla

2014-11-09 20:0= 8 GMT+03:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:


On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 a= t 1:48 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
2014-11-= 09 18:37 GMT+03:00 John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org>:=

I was actually thinking of something more radical:=C2=A0 replace all= syllabic
consonants with yC throughout the language.=C2=A0 Ivan Derzhanski argued fo= r
this long ago, and I now think he was correct: they reduce readability
and make things more awkward.=C2=A0 Syllabic consonants were introduced by<= br> JCB, and I think we should have discarded them for Lojban; Loglan wound
up being more dependent on them, and writing them double.
<= div>
If this change can be eas= ily explained (e.g. "replace all syllabic consonants to {yr}") th= en it's okay. Existing texts will be assumed to be synonymous to these = amended words just like {klamygau} is a full synonym of {klagau} (except th= e sounding and the text itself).

Doing that won't work in general for consonantal s= yllables in places other than in the type-3 hyphen. For example the current= ly valid fu'ivla "mutcmle" (mut,cm,le) would turn into a lujv= o "mutcymle". Such fu'ivla are rare, but I'm sure there a= re already a few in jbovlaste. Examples like this that create actual possib= le words can only happen with Cm consonantal syllables, because "m&quo= t; is the only syllabic consonant that can start a CC onset.=C2=A0

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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