Received: from mail-vc0-f191.google.com ([209.85.220.191]:54551) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2PJi-0002FW-3P; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:03:55 -0800 Received: by mail-vc0-f191.google.com with SMTP id hq11sf352160vcb.8; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:03:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=WUB6/Hc9LvE1tHLYfrNNC3jTxc+XvTabnusccJH8KWI=; b=fD16JLVgCxhP5SKySrDhKCXXZFtiUoaoyQ3RmPPNewZQb0zf6x0jffOAHDCsN1amcA XS0MbtmPlA5aKFYOmhOvmUkeAnlDg9j/uLnbO7Ys9pdYEUv9M+C9aXPSSMzoFgnuq582 EvprZ3KuSHXid7AecYdwzw59GSWefq9dBugPGFoxNQdfJ+U0xvow1cIM0zcvVmznsjOC RfvdPBNNK+gloVPsYswV9AnQxtYuZtn/Tw2rJzAV3xjJwCu/dDc5SkwWOYMwo5N9ZgX7 B71R92B0mcSJ3h0xxiOlAArIPQmc+waEg/dzDctdKn7TDemZlcnEGgpWX/vL56fKDUmF a0cw== X-Received: by 10.50.143.102 with SMTP id sd6mr143199igb.13.1419102227712; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:03:47 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.107.135.137 with SMTP id r9ls3726492ioi.30.gmail; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:03:47 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.66.248.229 with SMTP id yp5mr6732657pac.12.1419102227416; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:03:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.163.71 with SMTP id z7msqax; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 10:46:24 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.182.210.232 with SMTP id mx8mr87866obc.16.1419101184329; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 10:46:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 10:46:23 -0800 (PST) From: Jacob Errington To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <603e27d5-4132-4fe0-84bb-23815fa64a5d@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: [bpfk] Re: official cmavo form MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_63_1915162640.1419101183823" X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 9907 ------=_Part_63_1915162640.1419101183823 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_64_1653589244.1419101183823" ------=_Part_64_1653589244.1419101183823 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 My stance on this issue, which I believe is a decent compromise between the different issues raised in this thread (which I will not take the time to respond to individually) is that glides should be permitted, but be non-clustering. What I mean by "non-clustering" is that clusters of the form /Cg/ should be forbidden. In other words, the occurrance of Cg means a syllable break must occur between the C and g. This breaks words such as "guaspi" and "tuitsku", and even cmevla such as "tuitr" and "nitcion". For cmevla, the problem is not so dramatic, as we can just break up the gV into ghV, getting "tu'itr" and "nitci'on", or we can displace the glide by inserting another vowel, yielding "tuuitr" and "nitciion" (I address those specific forms below). For zi'evla/fu'ivla, the issue is trickier as "gu'aspi" is no longer a fu'ivla. I suspect that some/many such fu'ivla will become so-called tcizbaga-form words: they will become fu'ivla masquerading as lujvo. That is another debate to be had, however. I propose correcting these words, which begin with with Cg, more robustly so that the result is still in fu'ivla form. Furthermore, I propose restricting valid pronunciations of the 'u' in 'uV' to only be the approximant /w/. This solves the problem with the string "tuuitsku": it would therefore need to be interpreted "tu uitsku". Disyllabic realizations of the diphthongs would be forbidden. As for the case as hand which sparked this discussion, namely the experimental cmavo "jie'e'e", it would be forbidden as it would contain a cluster involving a glide. This solution also acts to increase consistency in the morphology between zi'evla, cmevla, and lujvo. Also, since this proposal effectively considers /j/ and /w/ as consonants, I think I should clarify that I would be opposed to considering words such as "uitki" to be gismu, simply on the basis that expanding the gismu space should be done with more care. We may wish to consider them gismu at a later time, but that would require changing words such as "uitki" that do not deserve to be gismu. (I'm not specifically saying uitki is undeserving of a gismu. That's a separate debate, unrelated to the one at hand.) For now they should still be considered zi'evla/fu'ivla. Besides breaking certain fu'ivla and cmevla, neither of which is core to the language like the gismu or cmavo, both of which can be fixed a posteriori, what issues does this solution raise? On Sunday, 19 October 2014 20:19:33 UTC-4, guskant wrote: > > coi ro me byfy > > peg morphology allows cmavo beginning with "consonant glide": > > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+PEG+Morphology+Algorithm > cmavo-form <- !h !cluster onset (nucleus h)* (!stressed nucleus / nucleus > !cluster) / y+ / digit > onset <- h / consonant? glide / initial > > while CLL3.4 disallows it: > "the ten following ones [diphtongs with on-glide, i.e. beginning with i or > u] are used only as stand-alone words and in Lojbanized names and > borrowings." > > Which is official now? La jbovlaste allows it based on peg morphology, and > la gleki and I don't agree to the new rule. Concretely, an experimental > cmavo "jie'e'e" is now discussed: > > http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/comments.html?valsi=27527;natlangword=0;commentid=0;definition=0 > > If this new rule is official, CLL3.4 must be modified. > > mi'e la guskant mu'o > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_64_1653589244.1419101183823 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My stance on this issue, which I believe is a decent compr= omise between the different issues raised in this thread (which I will not = take the time to respond to individually) is that glides should be permitte= d, but be non-clustering.

What I mean by "non-clustering" is that cl= usters of the form /Cg/ should be forbidden. In other words, the occurrance= of Cg means a syllable break must occur between the C and g.

This b= reaks words such as "guaspi" and "tuitsku", and even cmevla such as "tuitr"= and "nitcion".

For cmevla, the problem is not so dramatic, as we c= an just break up the gV into ghV, getting "tu'itr" and "nitci'on", or we ca= n displace the glide by inserting another vowel, yielding "tuuitr" and "nit= ciion" (I address those specific forms below).

For zi'evla/fu'ivla,= the issue is trickier as "gu'aspi" is no longer a fu'ivla. I suspect that = some/many such fu'ivla will become so-called tcizbaga-form words: they will= become fu'ivla masquerading as lujvo. That is another debate to be had, ho= wever. I propose correcting these words, which begin with with Cg, more rob= ustly so that the result is still in fu'ivla form.

Furthermore, I pr= opose restricting valid pronunciations of the 'u' in 'uV' to only be the ap= proximant /w/. This solves the problem with the string "tuuitsku": it would= therefore need to be interpreted "tu uitsku". Disyllabic realizations of t= he diphthongs would be forbidden.

As for the case as hand which spa= rked this discussion, namely the experimental cmavo "jie'e'e", it would be = forbidden as it would contain a cluster involving a glide.

This solu= tion also acts to increase consistency in the morphology between zi'evla, c= mevla, and lujvo.

Also, since this proposal effectively considers /= j/ and /w/ as consonants, I think I should clarify that I would be opposed = to considering words such as "uitki" to be gismu, simply on the basis that = expanding the gismu space should be done with more care. We may wish to con= sider them gismu at a later time, but that would require changing words suc= h as "uitki" that do not deserve to be gismu. (I'm not specifically saying = uitki is undeserving of a gismu. That's a separate debate, unrelated to the= one at hand.) For now they should still be considered zi'evla/fu'ivla.
=
Besides breaking certain fu'ivla and cmevla, neither of which is core t= o the language like the gismu or cmavo, both of which can be fixed a poster= iori, what issues does this solution raise?


On Sunday, 19 Octobe= r 2014 20:19:33 UTC-4, guskant wrote:
coi ro me byfy

peg morphology allows cmavo = beginning with "consonant glide":

http://www.lojb= an.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+PEG+Morphology+Algorithm
cmavo= -form <- !h !cluster onset (nucleus h)* (!stressed nucleus / nucleus !cl= uster) / y+ / digit
onset <-  h / consonant? glide / initial
=
while CLL3.4 disallows it:
"the ten following ones [diphtongs with o= n-glide, i.e. beginning with i or u] are used only as stand-alone words and= in Lojbanized names and borrowings."

Which is official now? La jbov= laste allows it based on peg morphology, and la gleki and I don't agree to = the new rule. Concretely, an experimental cmavo "jie'e'e" is now discussed:=
http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/com= ments.html?valsi=3D27527;natlangword=3D0;commentid=3D0;definition= =3D0

If this new rule is official, CLL3.4 must be modified.
<= br>mi'e la guskant mu'o

--
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Visit this group at ht= tp://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.
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