Received: from mail-ie0-f183.google.com ([209.85.223.183]:39479) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3Z2v-0006Nb-PC; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:39:23 -0800 Received: by mail-ie0-f183.google.com with SMTP id x19sf1017685ier.20; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:39:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=zAjBF4BxE3JxjRo7AENd1Qhw4AhaKoMSnT06gzmWy30=; b=fyBJ7BaZhtfHnK3Iyjp2qtMTa0X1nINAyP/8fZSyGZo/jW4XRzlymhqxQXuetxaXNr +XxBBWR8hVAP/jQrPv4LHDhsyEQJPByxXAvnCa5djEAnXPoAQ11l7DH6xc3XNSSEZnAI pb14PRbvRc5isvsnsdOmVdLap++I2nlyZzoLmlfXhd8ucUrnakYqDHpSPUdHOkJs9jWf BuMO2Xzrxa57lc12krEycP1qveYf2toC+2D3ypr2u4tAD0w2oYQTc2sDF+0yW9b0I/ah NVQZ3SJBbJ9pYl4F+EhpLKzLLFreMunSJe85/IsY+M5CfCLdUE9PLIyF5SCJnYb7q4/b 1jBA== X-Received: by 10.182.214.106 with SMTP id nz10mr199077obc.4.1419377954754; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:39:14 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.55.2 with SMTP id n2ls746293obp.9.gmail; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:39:14 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.182.89.136 with SMTP id bo8mr24726812obb.7.1419377954493; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:39:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from talbot.seas.upenn.edu (talbotv6.seas.upenn.edu. [2607:f470:8:64:5ea5::2]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id u7si3257013qcf.2.2014.12.23.15.39.14 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:39:14 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of aburka@seas.upenn.edu designates 2607:f470:8:64:5ea5::2 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f470:8:64:5ea5::2; Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-69-249-31-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net [69.249.31.89]) (authenticated bits=0) by talbot.seas.upenn.edu (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id sBNNdD4P003243 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 18:39:13 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 18:39:07 -0500 From: Alex Burka To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5499F18D.1010209@gmail.com> References: <5499F18D.1010209@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [bpfk] pi PA [sumti] X-Mailer: sparrow 1.6.4 (build 1178) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="5499fd1b_4691de24_17f" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5400 definitions=5800 signatures=585085 X-PP-Spam-Details: rule=add_spam_details policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=4 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1111160001 definitions=main-1412230243 X-Original-Sender: aburka@seas.upenn.edu X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of aburka@seas.upenn.edu designates 2607:f470:8:64:5ea5::2 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=aburka@seas.upenn.edu Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 10117 --5499fd1b_4691de24_17f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I note that the current Lojban definition of {si'e} in jbovlaste is somewha= t different (and clearer) from the English. The English says (or seems to s= ay) the PA is to be interpreted as "a PA'th", i.e. 1/PA, so that {lo mu si'= e} would be one-fifth or 20%. But then what does {lo pi re si'e} mean? Pres= umably also 20% -- this is clearly the intent of expanding {pire lo plise} = to {lo pire si'e be pa me lo plise}. cmavo: si'e (MOI) Jbovlaste Lojban Definition galfi lu'e lo namcu lo selbrisle .i x1 pagbu x2 ije le namcu cu frinu le se= klani be x1 le se klani be x2 The Lojban definition simply says that the PA is the ratio between the quan= tities of x1 and x2, so there is no room for the "one PA'th" interpretation= , and indeed {lo mu si'e} (500%) would either be nonsensical, or we would h= ave {x1 mu si'e x2} =3D {x2 pire si'e x1}. So I think this is the root of the problem. Assuming the Lojban definition = is to be trusted, should we remove the "x1 is a PA'th of x2" expansion, or = clarify that it only applies in the case that PA is an integer greater than= one, or something? Some usage -- which I have not attempted to analyze -- can be seen by enter= ing these queries at the Advanced tab in la korpora zei sisku (http://korp.= alexburka.com/#?stats_reduce=3Dword&cqp=3D%5B%5D&search_tab=3D2) (sorry, I = tried linking directly to the results and got a dead bird): PA* si'e (no {pi}) 44 results [pos !=3D "PA"] [pos =3D "PA" & word !=3D "pi= "]+ [word =3D "si'e"] piPA* si'e 18 results [pos !=3D "PA"] [word =3D "pi"] [pos =3D "PA"]+ [word= =3D "si'e"] Maybe there is also some {PA*piPA* si'e} usage, I didn't check -- construct= ing that query is left as an exercise for the reader %^) mu'o mi'e la durkavore =20 On Tuesday, December 23, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Ilmen wrote: > =E2=80=A2 http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+gadri > =20 > piPA [sumti] =3D lo piPA si'e be pa me [sumti] =20 > =E2=80=A2 http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Numeric+selbri > =20 > cmavo: si'e (MOI) > Proposed Definition > =20 > Converts a number, lerfu-string or ME-converted sumti into a tanru-unit. = The place structure in the case of a number is "x1 is/are a [number]th of x= 2". In general for any sumti the place structure is "x1 is a part/fraction = of x2, quantified by [number/lerfu/sumti]". =20 > Isn't there a contradiction between the proposed expansion for {pi PA [su= mti]} and the definition of {si'e}? > Shouldn't the former be {pi PA [sumti] =3D lo me li pa fe'i PA me'u si'e = be...}, or something like that? > =20 > Besides, isn't it weird that {pi ro ko'a} has a different meaning from {p= a ko'a}? > =20 > mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o > =20 > -- =20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:bpfk-list+unsubscr= ibe@googlegroups.com). > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com (mailto:b= pfk-list@googlegroups.com). > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --5499fd1b_4691de24_17f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
I note that the current Lojban definition of {si'e} in = jbovlaste is somewhat different (and clearer) from the English. The English= says (or seems to say) the PA is to be interpreted as "a PA'th", i.e. 1/PA= , so that {lo mu si'e} would be one-fifth or 20%. But then what does {lo pi= re si'e} mean? Presumably also 20% -- this is clearly the intent of expand= ing {pire lo plise} to {lo pire si'e be pa me lo plise}.

cmavo: si'e (MOI)Jbovlaste Lojban Definition

galfi lu'e lo namcu lo selbr= isle .i x1 pagbu x2 ije le namcu cu frinu le se klani be x1 le se klani be = x2


The = Lojban definition simply says that the PA is the ratio between the quantiti= es of x1 and x2, so there is no room for the "one PA'th" interpretation, an= d indeed {lo mu si'e} (500%) would either be nonsensical, or we would have = {x1 mu si'e x2} =3D {x2 pire si'e x1}.

So I think = this is the root of the problem. Assuming the Lojban definition is to be tr= usted, should we remove the "x1 is a PA'th of x2" expansion, or clarify tha= t it only applies in the case that PA is an integer greater than one, or so= mething?

Some usage -- which I have not attempted = to analyze -- can be seen by entering these queries at the Advanced tab in = la korpora zei sisku (sorry, I tried linking = directly to the results and got a dead bird):

PA* = si'e (no {pi}) 44 res= ults [pos= !=3D "PA"] [pos =3D "PA" & word !=3D "pi"]+ [word =3D "si'e"]
piPA* si'e 18 results [pos !=3D "PA"] [word =3D "pi"] [pos =3D "PA"]+ [word =3D "si'e= "]

Maybe there is also some {PA*piPA* si'e} usage,= I didn't check -- constructing that query is left as an exercise for the r= eader %^)

mu'o mi'e la durkavore
=20 =20

On Tuesday, December 23, 2014 = at 5:49 PM, Ilmen wrote:

=20 =20 =20 =E2=80=A2 ht= tp://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+gadri

piPA [sumti]  =3D  lo piPA si'e be pa me <= em>[sumti]

=E2=80=A2 http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Numeric+selbri

cmavo: si'e (MOI)
Proposed Definition

Converts a number, lerfu-string or ME-converted sumti into a tanru-unit. The place structure in the case of a number is = "x1 is/are a [number]th of x2". In general for any sumti the place structure is "x1 is a part/fraction of x2, quantified by [number/lerfu/sumti]".

Isn't there a contradiction between the proposed expansion for {pi PA [sumti]} and the definition of {si'e}?
Shouldn't the former be {pi PA [sumti] =3D lo me li pa fe'i PA me'u si'e be...}, or something like that?

Besides, isn't it weird that {pi ro ko'a} has a different meaning from {pa ko'a}?

mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o

=20

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=20 =20 =20 =20
=20

=20

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