Received: from mail-oi0-f60.google.com ([209.85.218.60]:37323) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3Zfl-0000JM-HJ; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 16:19:31 -0800 Received: by mail-oi0-f60.google.com with SMTP id g201sf3115937oib.5; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 16:19:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=xr/o32QHM2X0v6ktxDbavC3UqhZp3fyOyF6J2KgHOa4=; b=X7mxdcCSgGKx742K/w4bHWZY5mS0ZLZWNsjiCZdccfujAyqVGnEOpyYX5BnhNTg9Jy 0jWBPe1mwqoc9GS8q+fjkZPi9x5hazFRfm3qUpz/qycFiYqigBdna2ZLcBadlqpdYsO8 jItEWnyE8NRcx/G2+Ji5q+86A0NeqDVzJZIi6yGK2gf5+FDLLuVjsIsLCNUL0l/qz06I aukWz9myk2eSl4DlJUXXn2TVRY7OBeSCX50AgsOSgpAFYq2GQJLD6L/+MYb7esTydQ+E CpsnSQeFo1NbSwNlDxRh0SdUN4VZlX0CfBzyMHkd3ZR/3TWNrX+yJ7jHtzvNz36qWUnL D8rQ== X-Received: by 10.140.28.180 with SMTP id 49mr396815qgz.4.1419380363426; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 16:19:23 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.106.201 with SMTP id e67ls1954173qgf.63.gmail; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 16:19:23 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.236.216.8 with SMTP id f8mr2949655yhp.58.1419380363225; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 16:19:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x22d.google.com (mail-oi0-x22d.google.com. [2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h4si499440igg.1.2014.12.23.16.19.23 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Dec 2014 16:19:23 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gusni.kantu@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22d; Received: by mail-oi0-f45.google.com with SMTP id x69so15781721oia.4 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 16:19:23 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.60.125.37 with SMTP id mn5mr4924815oeb.45.1419380362939; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 16:19:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.76.74.38 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 16:19:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <5499F18D.1010209@gmail.com> From: guskant Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 09:19:02 +0900 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bpfk] pi PA [sumti] To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b343dfe559560050aeb3e64 X-Original-Sender: gusni.kantu@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gusni.kantu@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gusni.kantu@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 8782 --047d7b343dfe559560050aeb3e64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just for info, I used to discuss the related problem on the CLL: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/e8b440f179edc867 At that time, I did not add an erratum to the CLL errata page, but it seems better to do it. mu'o 2014-12-24 8:43 GMT+09:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 7:49 PM, Ilmen wrote: > >> =E2=80=A2 http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+gadri >> >> piPA *[sumti]* =3D lo piPA si'e be pa me *[sumti]* >> =E2=80=A2 http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Numeric+selbri >> >> *cmavo: si'e (MOI)* >> *Proposed Definition* >> >> Converts a number, lerfu-string or ME-converted sumti into a tanru-unit. >> The place structure in the case of a number is *"x1 is/are a *[number]*t= h >> of x2"*. In general for any sumti the place structure is *"x1 is a >> part/fraction of x2, quantified by *[number/lerfu/sumti]*"*. >> Isn't there a contradiction between the proposed expansion for {pi PA >> [sumti]} and the definition of {si'e}? >> Shouldn't the former be {*pi PA* [sumti] =3D lo *me li pa fe'i PA me'u* >> si'e be...}, or something like that? >> > > The definitions are horribly worded, but "pi mu" is supposed to be one > half, or five tenths, not one fifth, and "pi mu si'e" is like "xadba". > > >> Besides, isn't it weird that {pi ro ko'a} has a different meaning from >> {pa ko'a}? >> > > "pi ro ko'a" ("the whole of ko'a") only really makes sense when ko'a is > one (and if ko'a happen to be many I think "pi ro" forces a one group > interpretation so that a whole can make sense. OTOH, "pa ko'a" ("one of > ko'a") only really makes sense when ko'a are more than one, and it's weir= d > if not meaningless when ko'a is one. I would say that when ko'a is one, "= pa > ko'a" forces a multiplication of ko'a into instances or such. > > A better definition for "pi PA ko'a" might be something like "lo pi PA > si'e be ko'a noi pi ro ke'a pa mei" > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b343dfe559560050aeb3e64 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just for info, I used to discuss the related problem on th= e CLL:
At that time, I did not add an e= rratum to the CLL errata page, but it seems better to do it.
mu&#= 39;o

2= 014-12-24 8:43 GMT+09:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com= >:

On Tue, Dec= 23, 2014 at 7:49 PM, Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com> = wrote:
=20 =20 =20
=E2=80=A2 http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+gadri

piPA [sumti]=C2=A0 =3D=C2=A0 lo piPA si'e be pa = me [sumti]

=E2=80=A2 http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Numer= ic+selbri

cmavo: si'e (MOI)
Proposed Definition

Converts a number, lerfu-string or ME-converted sumti into a tanru-unit. The place structure in the case of a number is = "x1 is/are a [number]th of x2". In general for any sumti the place structure is "x1 is a part/fractio= n of x2, quantified by [number/lerfu/sumti]"= .

Isn't there a contradiction between the proposed expansion for {pi PA [sumti]} and the definition of {si'e}?
Shouldn't the former be {pi PA [sumti] =3D lo me li pa fe= 'i PA me'u si'e be...}, or something like that?

The definitions are horribly worded, b= ut "pi mu" is supposed to be one half, or five tenths, not one fi= fth, and "pi mu si'e" is like "xadba".=C2=A0
<= span class=3D"">
=C2=A0=C2=A0
Besides, isn't it weird that {pi ro ko'a} has a different meani= ng from {pa ko'a}?

&q= uot;pi ro ko'a" ("the whole of ko'a") only really ma= kes sense when ko'a is one (and if ko'a happen to be many I think &= quot;pi ro" forces a one group interpretation so that a whole can make= sense. OTOH, "pa ko'a" ("one of ko'a") only re= ally makes sense when ko'a are more than one, and it's weird if not= meaningless when ko'a is one. I would say that when ko'a is one, &= quot;pa ko'a" forces a multiplication of ko'a into instances o= r such.=C2=A0

A better definition for "pi PA = ko'a" might be something like "lo pi PA si'e be ko'a = noi pi ro ke'a pa mei"

mu'o mi'e = xorxes

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