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[2607:f470:8:64:5ea5::2]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id c4si282792qco.0.2014.12.11.10.02.54 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 10:02:54 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of aburka@seas.upenn.edu designates 2607:f470:8:64:5ea5::2 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f470:8:64:5ea5::2; Received: from [158.130.105.58] (SEAS313.wlan.seas.upenn.edu [158.130.105.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by talbot.seas.upenn.edu (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id sBBI2rJJ013331 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:02:53 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:02:53 -0500 From: Alex Burka To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <5444FEBF.10200@gmx.de> <544507CD.9050608@gmail.com> <20141021000349.GM14499@mercury.ccil.org> <54461EDB.70808@gmail.com> <54490F94.60609@lojban.org> <27825508-120d-421d-beb7-498fa858f673@googlegroups.com> <20141211131615.GF5272@mercury.ccil.org> <37B9332186E84669A81F0F30709F2B48@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [bpfk] official cmavo form X-Mailer: sparrow 1.6.4 (build 1178) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="5489dc4d_4695ae95_c3a6" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5400 definitions=5800 signatures=585085 X-PP-Spam-Details: rule=add_spam_details policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=4 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1111160001 definitions=main-1412110172 X-Original-Sender: aburka@seas.upenn.edu X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of aburka@seas.upenn.edu designates 2607:f470:8:64:5ea5::2 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=aburka@seas.upenn.edu Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 12761 --5489dc4d_4695ae95_c3a6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I mean consistency as in not having sounds that are allowed in one word cla= ss but not another (zifcme aside). On Thursday, December 11, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > There wasnt any reasonable consistency and there isnt. Take {mz} but {nz}= , {ms} and {ns}. >=20 > 2014-12-11 19:30 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka : > > The preprocessor thing doesn't make a ton of sense to me. Does anyone e= lse support this "dialectal variation"? We don't preprocess {ie} to {i'e}, = so I don't see the point in changing ?{jie} to {ji'e}. They're quite differ= ent sounds, and moreover different syllable counts, so you'll be complectin= g the stress and word segmentation rules as well as breaking audiovisual is= omorphism.=20 > >=20 > > As for the larger question, I don't have a very strong opinion. I lean = towards consistency (that would be banning it or allowing it everywhere). I= f we do allow it, maybe the sibilants should still be an exception for ease= of pronunciation (I don't have trouble with ?{guaspi}, but ?{jiespi} and ?= {ciaspi} are difficult). > >=20 > > So if we're approval-voting: 1.1.2 + 2. But I'm open to being convinced= otherwise. > >=20 > > mu'o mi'e la durkavore > >=20 > > On Thursday, December 11, 2014 at 8:41 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > 2014-12-11 16:16 GMT+03:00 John Cowan : > > > > Gleki Arxokuna scripsit: > > > >=20 > > > > > I vote for this. + I prefer it to be just a synonym (dialect vari= ation of > > > > > the same sequence but with a {'} inside. co'o zo guaspi > > > >=20 > > > > I can live with this, but I'd prefer to ban it altogether. > > >=20 > > > It depends on in what way should it be banned.=20 > > > I vote for banning it from the formal grammar however, I vote for the= preprocessor to be able to autocorrect {jie} back to {ji'e}. Speech recogn= ition must be able to recognize both variants. > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > -- > > > > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.or= g (mailto:cowan@ccil.org) > > > > Clear? Huh! Why a four-year-old child could understand this repor= t. > > > > Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head or ta= il > > > > out of it. --Rufus T. Firefly on government reports > > > >=20 > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google = Groups "BPFK" group. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, s= end an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:bpfk-list%2B= unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com (ma= ilto:bpfk-list@googlegroups.com). > > > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > > > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups "BPFK" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:bpfk-list+unsu= bscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com (mail= to:bpfk-list@googlegroups.com). > > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >=20 > > --=20 > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "BPFK" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send = an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:bpfk-list+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com). > > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com (mailto= :bpfk-list@googlegroups.com). > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:bpfk-list+unsubscr= ibe@googlegroups.com). > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com (mailto:b= pfk-list@googlegroups.com). > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --5489dc4d_4695ae95_c3a6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
I m= ean consistency as in not having sounds that are allowed in one word class = but not another (zifcme aside).
=20

On Thursday, December 11, 2014= at 1:00 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:

There wasnt any reason= able consistency and there isnt. Take {mz} but {nz}, {ms} and {ns}.

2014-12-11 19:30 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka <aburka@seas.upenn.e= du>:
The preprocessor thing doesn't make a ton of sense to m= e. Does anyone else support this "dialectal variation"? We don't preprocess= {ie} to {i'e}, so I don't see the point in changing ?{jie} to {ji'e}. They= 're quite different sounds, and moreover different syllable counts, so you'= ll be complecting the stress and word segmentation rules as well as breakin= g audiovisual isomorphism.

As for the larger question, I don= 't have a very strong opinion. I lean towards consistency (that would be ba= nning it or allowing it everywhere). If we do allow it, maybe the sibilants= should still be an exception for ease of pronunciation (I don't have troub= le with ?{guaspi}, but ?{jiespi} and ?{ciaspi} are difficult).
So if we're approval-voting: 1.1.2 + 2. But I'm open to being = convinced otherwise.

mu'o mi'e la durkavore
<= div>
=20 =20

On Thursday, December 11, 2014 a= t 8:41 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:



2014= -12-11 16:16 GMT+03:00 John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org>:
Gleki Arxokuna scripsit:

> I vote for this. + I prefer it to be just a synonym (dialect variation= of
> the same sequence but with a {'} inside. co'o zo guaspi

I can live with this, but I'd prefer to ban it altogether.
=

It depends on in what way should it be ban= ned. 
I vote for banning it from the formal grammar however,= I vote for the preprocessor to be able to autocorrect {jie} back to {ji'e}= . Speech recognition must be able to recognize both variants.

--
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan    &nbs= p;   cowan@ccil.or= g
Clear?  Huh!  Why a four-year-old child could understand t= his report.
Run out and find me a four-year-old child.  I can't make head or tail<= br> out of it.        --Rufus T. Firefly on government repo= rts

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=20 =20 =20 =20

=20

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=20 =20 =20 =20 =20

=20

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