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[2607:f470:8:64:5ea5::2]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id o4si172639qcg.3.2015.01.18.00.12.45 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2015 00:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of aburka@seas.upenn.edu designates 2607:f470:8:64:5ea5::2 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f470:8:64:5ea5::2; Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-69-249-31-89.hsd1.nj.comcast.net [69.249.31.89]) (authenticated bits=0) by talbot.seas.upenn.edu (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t0I8Ch1W016030 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2015 03:12:44 -0500 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 03:12:38 -0500 From: Alex Burka To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Message-ID: <424E268459184600B8F780EC386812C2@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20150117194920.GD14149@mercury.ccil.org> Subject: Re: [bpfk] Question on {z} vs. {dz} and {ts} X-Mailer: sparrow 1.6.4 (build 1178) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="54bb6af6_1b0623a7_12109" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5400 definitions=5800 signatures=585085 X-PP-Spam-Details: rule=add_spam_details policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=8 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1111160001 definitions=main-1501180091 X-Original-Sender: aburka@seas.upenn.edu X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of aburka@seas.upenn.edu designates 2607:f470:8:64:5ea5::2 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=aburka@seas.upenn.edu Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.8 X-Spam_score_int: 8 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: I think you missed the spirit of jcowan's answer, which was "why pick out {dz} specifically?" (I think -- hope I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth.) If we were to adopt a policy that people shouldn't have to learn new phonemes to speak Lojban, we'd have to remove pretty much all the phonemes. [...] Content analysis details: (0.8 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: ccil.org] 2.7 DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL RBL: Envelope sender listed in dnsbl.ahbl.org [listed in googlegroups.com.rhsbl.ahbl.org. IN] [A] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [209.85.160.189 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 T_HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders Content-Length: 12183 --54bb6af6_1b0623a7_12109 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I think you missed the spirit of jcowan's answer, which was "why pick out {= dz} specifically?" (I think -- hope I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth= .) If we were to adopt a policy that people shouldn't have to learn new pho= nemes to speak Lojban, we'd have to remove pretty much all the phonemes.=20 - durkavore=20 On Sunday, January 18, 2015 at 3:08 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >=20 >=20 > 2015-01-18 11:00 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : > > Where? All I see in your post is "should we get rid oz [z]" and "if we = get rid of [z], we'll need to do this stuff too". >=20 > > I suppose to do that one needs to always insert buffer between {dz}, neve= r pronounce {dz} as an affricate and may be even always insert {y} in {radz= u'e}.=20 >=20 > > =20 > >=20 > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 12:37 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > Wait, I offered a solution. Why didn't you comment on it? > > >=20 > > > 2015-01-17 22:49 GMT+03:00 John Cowan : > > > > Gleki Arxokuna scripsit: > > > >=20 > > > > > Today I was reminded of one "flaw" in phonology namely, the prese= nse of [z] > > > > > in Lojban. > > > >=20 > > > > If we go down that road there is no end to it. English has no /x/, > > > > Arabic has no /b/, Chinese not only lacks /z/ but also /h/ and the > > > > sounds written "e" and "o" are more like Lojban "y" and "uy". > > > > Spanish has no /y/ nor /c/. Hindi is missing /h/, as is Russian. > > > > Finally all that would be left is p~b, t~d, g~k, and a, i, u. > > > >=20 > > > > -- > > > > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.or= g (mailto:cowan@ccil.org) > > > > If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were stan= ding > > > > on my shoulders. --Hal Abelson > > > >=20 > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google = Groups "BPFK" group. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, s= end an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:bpfk-list%2B= unsubscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com (ma= ilto:bpfk-list@googlegroups.com). > > > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > > > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups "BPFK" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:bpfk-list+unsu= bscribe@googlegroups.com). > > > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com (mail= to:bpfk-list@googlegroups.com). > > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > >=20 > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > --=20 > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "BPFK" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send = an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:bpfk-list+unsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com). > > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com (mailto= :bpfk-list@googlegroups.com). > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com (mailto:bpfk-list+unsubscr= ibe@googlegroups.com). > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com (mailto:b= pfk-list@googlegroups.com). > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --54bb6af6_1b0623a7_12109 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
I think you missed the spirit of jcowan's answer, which= was "why pick out {dz} specifically?" (I think -- hope I'm not putting wor= ds in anyone's mouth.) If we were to adopt a policy that people shouldn't h= ave to learn new phonemes to speak Lojban, we'd have to remove pretty much = all the phonemes.

- durkavore
=20

On Sunday, January 18, 2015 at= 3:08 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:



2015= -01-18 11:00 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
Where? All I see in your post is "should we get rid oz [z]" a= nd "if we get rid of [z], we'll need to do this stuff too".

<quote>
I suppose to do that one= needs to always insert buffer between {dz}, never pronounce {dz} as an aff= ricate and may be even always insert {y} in {radzu'e}. 

=
</quote>
 

On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 12:37 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Wait, I offered a solution. Why didn't you = comment on it?

2015-01-17 22:49 GMT+03:00 John= Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org>:
Gleki Arxokuna scripsit:

> Today I was reminded of one "flaw" in phonology namely, the presense o= f [z]
> in Lojban.

If we go down that road there is no end to it.  English has no = /x/,
Arabic has no /b/, Chinese not only lacks /z/ but also /h/ and the
sounds written "e" and "o" are more like Lojban "y" and "uy".
Spanish has no /y/ nor /c/.  Hindi is missing /h/, as is Russian.
Finally all that would be left is p~b, t~d, g~k, and a, i, u.

--
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan    &nbs= p;   cowan@ccil.or= g
If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing
on my shoulders.  --Hal Abelson

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= --
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'uc= ai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to t= he Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.
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--
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=20 =20 =20 =20 =20

=20

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