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[2a00:1450:400c:c00::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s6si602857wif.0.2015.01.18.01.01.07 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 18 Jan 2015 01:01:07 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::233; Received: by mail-wg0-f51.google.com with SMTP id l18so4919698wgh.10 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2015 01:01:07 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.181.13.136 with SMTP id ey8mr23460781wid.50.1421571667139; Sun, 18 Jan 2015 01:01:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.86.200 with HTTP; Sun, 18 Jan 2015 01:00:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <424E268459184600B8F780EC386812C2@gmail.com> References: <20150117194920.GD14149@mercury.ccil.org> <424E268459184600B8F780EC386812C2@gmail.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 12:00:46 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bpfk] Question on {z} vs. {dz} and {ts} To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04388fcb3e2358050ce97293 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.8 X-Spam_score_int: 8 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Okay, let me rephrase my question to John Cowan. In what major languages the [d͡z] phoneme is present? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_alveolar_affricate I can't see English, I can't see Hindi, Spanish, Russian. Certain assumptions are needed to make it real in Mandarin but even then it'd be an allophone or [z]. Same for Russian "плацдарм". [...] Content analysis details: (0.8 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: ccil.org] 2.7 DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL RBL: Envelope sender listed in dnsbl.ahbl.org [listed in googlegroups.com.rhsbl.ahbl.org. IN] [A] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [74.125.82.62 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 T_HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (gleki.is.my.name[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders Content-Length: 15061 --f46d04388fcb3e2358050ce97293 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay, let me rephrase my question to John Cowan. In what major languages the [d=CD=A1z] phoneme is present? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_alveolar_affricate I can't see English, I can't see Hindi, Spanish, Russian. Certain assumptions are needed to make it real in Mandarin but even then it'd be an allophone or [z]. Same for Russian "=D0=BF=D0=BB=D0=B0=D1=86=D0=B4=D0=B0=D1= =80=D0=BC". And my question is: why not disallow [d=CD=A1z] since only Arabic has it. However, J. Cowan replied to a question "What are the universal phonemes in all major languages?" I haven't asked such a question but if such a question is asked one needs to think of mapping one letter to several phonemes to prevent the drastic reduction shown by John. 2015-01-18 11:12 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka : > I think you missed the spirit of jcowan's answer, which was "why pick ou= t > {dz} specifically?" (I think -- hope I'm not putting words in anyone's > mouth.) If we were to adopt a policy that people shouldn't have to learn > new phonemes to speak Lojban, we'd have to remove pretty much all the > phonemes. > > - durkavore > > On Sunday, January 18, 2015 at 3:08 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > > 2015-01-18 11:00 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : > > Where? All I see in your post is "should we get rid oz [z]" and "if we ge= t > rid of [z], we'll need to do this stuff too". > > > > I suppose to do that one needs to always insert buffer between {dz}, neve= r > pronounce {dz} as an affricate and may be even always insert {y} in > {radzu'e}. > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 12:37 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > > Wait, I offered a solution. Why didn't you comment on it? > > 2015-01-17 22:49 GMT+03:00 John Cowan : > > Gleki Arxokuna scripsit: > > > Today I was reminded of one "flaw" in phonology namely, the presense of > [z] > > in Lojban. > > If we go down that road there is no end to it. English has no /x/, > Arabic has no /b/, Chinese not only lacks /z/ but also /h/ and the > sounds written "e" and "o" are more like Lojban "y" and "uy". > Spanish has no /y/ nor /c/. Hindi is missing /h/, as is Russian. > Finally all that would be left is p~b, t~d, g~k, and a, i, u. > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing > on my shoulders. --Hal Abelson > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d04388fcb3e2358050ce97293 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Okay, let me rephrase my question to John Cowan.
In wh= at major languages the [d=CD=A1z] phoneme is present?
I can't see E= nglish, I can't see Hindi, Spanish, Russian. Certain assumptions are ne= eded to make it real in Mandarin but even then it'd be an allophone or = [z]. Same for Russian "=D0=BF=D0=BB=D0=B0=D1=86=D0=B4=D0=B0=D1=80=D0= =BC".

And my question is: why not disallow [d= =CD=A1z] since only Arabic has it.

However, J. Cow= an replied to a question "What are the universal phonemes in all major= languages?"

I haven't asked such a quest= ion but if such a question is asked one needs to think of mapping one lette= r to several phonemes to prevent the drastic reduction shown by John.
=

2015-01-18 = 11:12 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka <aburka@seas.upenn.edu>:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I think you missed the spirit of jcowan's answer, w= hich was "why pick out {dz} specifically?" (I think -- hope I'= ;m not putting words in anyone's mouth.) If we were to adopt a policy t= hat people shouldn't have to learn new phonemes to speak Lojban, we'= ;d have to remove pretty much all the phonemes.

- durkavore
=20

On Sunday, January 18, 2015 at 3= :08 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:



2015= -01-18 11:00 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
Where? All I see in your post is "should we get rid oz [= z]" and "if we get rid of [z], we'll need to do this stuff to= o".

<quote>
= I suppose to do that one needs to always insert buffer between {dz}, never = pronounce {dz} as an affricate and may be even always insert {y} in {radzu&= #39;e}.=C2=A0

</quote>
=C2=A0

On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 12= :37 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>= wrote:
Wait, I offered = a solution. Why didn't you comment on it?

= 2015-01-17 22:49 GMT+03:00 John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org>= :
Gleki Arxokuna scripsit:

> Today I was reminded of one "flaw" in phonology namely, the = presense of [z]
> in Lojban.

If we go down that road there is no end to it.=C2=A0 English has no = /x/,
Arabic has no /b/, Chinese not only lacks /z/ but also /h/ and the
sounds written "e" and "o" are more like Lojban "y= " and "uy".
Spanish has no /y/ nor /c/.=C2=A0 Hindi is missing /h/, as is Russian.
Finally all that would be left is p~b, t~d, g~k, and a, i, u.

--
John Cowan=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 cowan@ccil.o= rg
If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing
on my shoulders.=C2=A0 --Hal Abelson

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= --
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'= ;o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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=20 =20 =20 =20 =20

=20

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