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[2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r4si1281509qca.0.2015.01.18.08.31.51 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 18 Jan 2015 08:31:51 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22a; Received: by mail-qa0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id dc16so21165018qab.1 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2015 08:31:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.89.65 with SMTP id d1mr37713592qam.4.1421598711609; Sun, 18 Jan 2015 08:31:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.96.144.40 with HTTP; Sun, 18 Jan 2015 08:31:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20150117194920.GD14149@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 09:31:51 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bpfk] Question on {z} vs. {dz} and {ts} From: Jonathan Jones To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3bb8e37fff7050cefbece X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.8 X-Spam_score_int: 8 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Yes, that would be the "if we get rid of [z], we'll need to do this stuff too" bit I was referring to. On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 1:08 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > 2015-01-18 11:00 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : > >> Where? All I see in your post is "should we get rid oz [z]" and "if we >> get rid of [z], we'll need to do this stuff too". >> > > > I suppose to do that one needs to always insert buffer between {dz}, never > pronounce {dz} as an affricate and may be even always insert {y} in > {radzu'e}. > > > > >> >> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 12:37 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Wait, I offered a solution. Why didn't you comment on it? >>> >>> 2015-01-17 22:49 GMT+03:00 John Cowan : >>> >>>> Gleki Arxokuna scripsit: >>>> >>>> > Today I was reminded of one "flaw" in phonology namely, the presense >>>> of [z] >>>> > in Lojban. >>>> >>>> If we go down that road there is no end to it. English has no /x/, >>>> Arabic has no /b/, Chinese not only lacks /z/ but also /h/ and the >>>> sounds written "e" and "o" are more like Lojban "y" and "uy". >>>> Spanish has no /y/ nor /c/. Hindi is missing /h/, as is Russian. >>>> Finally all that would be left is p~b, t~d, g~k, and a, i, u. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org >>>> If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing >>>> on my shoulders. --Hal Abelson >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "BPFK" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "BPFK" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to [...] Content analysis details: (0.8 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. 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IN] [A] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [209.85.218.55 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 T_HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (eyeonus[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders Content-Length: 12057 --001a11c3bb8e37fff7050cefbece Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Yes, that would be the "if we get rid of [z], we'll need to do this stuff too" bit I was referring to. On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 1:08 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > 2015-01-18 11:00 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones : > >> Where? All I see in your post is "should we get rid oz [z]" and "if we >> get rid of [z], we'll need to do this stuff too". >> > > > I suppose to do that one needs to always insert buffer between {dz}, never > pronounce {dz} as an affricate and may be even always insert {y} in > {radzu'e}. > > > > >> >> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 12:37 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Wait, I offered a solution. Why didn't you comment on it? >>> >>> 2015-01-17 22:49 GMT+03:00 John Cowan : >>> >>>> Gleki Arxokuna scripsit: >>>> >>>> > Today I was reminded of one "flaw" in phonology namely, the presense >>>> of [z] >>>> > in Lojban. >>>> >>>> If we go down that road there is no end to it. English has no /x/, >>>> Arabic has no /b/, Chinese not only lacks /z/ but also /h/ and the >>>> sounds written "e" and "o" are more like Lojban "y" and "uy". >>>> Spanish has no /y/ nor /c/. Hindi is missing /h/, as is Russian. >>>> Finally all that would be left is p~b, t~d, g~k, and a, i, u. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org >>>> If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing >>>> on my shoulders. --Hal Abelson >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "BPFK" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "BPFK" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "BPFK" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c3bb8e37fff7050cefbece Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, that would be the "if we get ri= d of [z], we'll need to do this stuff too" bit I was referring to.=

O= n Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 1:08 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@= gmail.com> wrote:


2015-01-18 11:00 GMT+03:00 Jonathan Jones= <eyeonus@gmail.com>:
Where? All I see in your post is "shou= ld we get rid oz [z]" and "if we get rid of [z], we'll need t= o do this stuff too".

<quote>
I suppose to do that one needs to= always insert buffer between {dz}, never pronounce {dz} as an affricate an= d may be even always insert {y} in {radzu'e}.=C2=A0

</quote>
=C2=A0

On Sun, Jan 18, 2= 015 at 12:37 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
Wait, I offered a solution. Why didn't you comment on it?

201= 5-01-17 22:49 GMT+03:00 John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org>:
Gleki Arxokuna s= cripsit:

> Today I was reminded of one "flaw" in phonology namely, the = presense of [z]
> in Lojban.

If we go down that road there is no end to it.=C2=A0 English has no = /x/,
Arabic has no /b/, Chinese not only lacks /z/ but also /h/ and the
sounds written "e" and "o" are more like Lojban "y= " and "uy".
Spanish has no /y/ nor /c/.=C2=A0 Hindi is missing /h/, as is Russian.
Finally all that would be left is p~b, t~d, g~k, and a, i, u.

--
John Cowan=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 cowan@ccil.o= rg
If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing
on my shoulders.=C2=A0 --Hal Abelson

--
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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= --
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e&= #39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
= (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

=

--
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmi= ma lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Do= t Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list= +unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at ht= tp://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a11c3bb8e37fff7050cefbece--